Advice and Support for South Africans Immigrating to New Zealand

South Africans Going To New Zealand

Author Topic: Tolerance Please  (Read 14173 times)

Offline LoveNZ

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Re: Tolerance Please
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2010, 12:11:29 am »
Great idea...

Offline SaKiwiBoer

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Re: Tolerance Please
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2010, 01:19:14 am »
NicholaM2  O0 .
Start one like that...
SAKB.
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Re: Tolerance Please
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2010, 01:19:14 am »

Offline Happy Expat

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Re: Tolerance Please
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2010, 01:43:07 am »
Thanks for the huge compliment Schalk!! You gave me  :blush: :)

I was planning my next post while reading your post and forgot everything when I got to the end and read the bit about me ;) :blush:

I do try to be open and honest and I'm glad I have helped people along the way. O0

I can only tell things from my experiences and often they differ from other people, but that's life in general.

What I wanted to say about the first part of your post is that we often word things a certain way, and people, depending on the readers mood or situation when they read it, can take it the wrong way very easily.
For example, we made a comment about the UK on a site when we were leaving that made our life hell :-\.
We had horses in the UK and each day, no matter what the weather, I was out there tending to my them. Now as we all know, in the UK it rains a lot, so it's always muddy and battling through the mud with a horse everyday is not fun. Now people that don't have horses, don't understand that, so when we said, we are sick and tired of "Mud Island" we got slammed down big time??? :(

Now if I said that about NZ, the people that know me would think I've really gone nuts, cos I love mud and I love driving my truck in deep mud and getting really messy, but we didn't have a truck in the UK.

So what I'm trying to say is, just think about what you are reading. That person could just be down that day and we all say things we don't mean when we are down, or they may feel on top of the world and everything in their life is just wonderful???

So just play nice guys ;) Moving countries is hard, if it was easy we wouldn't need sites like this one to help us through, so lets be supportive no matter what the other people are doing O0
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 02:03:52 am by Happy Expat »


Offline Savayla

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Re: Tolerance Please
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2010, 03:55:06 am »
I guess in some sort of subconscious way, we constantly try and "justify" our decisions/actions and when people say something negative about something you feel positive about, you feel personally attacked.



I think this hits the nail on the head.  We should not feel that we are personally attacked, however, sometimes you open up a can of worms and people do start coming down on you. Usually it is only one or two.  This happened to me during the homeschooling debate which i was thoroughly enjoying, until it started getting too personal.  And when you feel personally attacked, even though it may be all in your mind, you tend to feel offended, and then usually write something that you don't mean or that you do  >:D but shouldn't have in the first place. 

I have learnt from that, and so now I just calmly back out and leave the conversation.  Something I read recently in my latest book :  Think very carefully before you start an argument based on emotion.  If something positive will come out of it, then go ahead.  If there is nothing positive coming out it, except you winning, then back out. 

Offline Feather

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Re: Tolerance Please
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2010, 06:03:54 am »
Thanks Nolan for expressing my thoughts!  I watched the argument yesterday, came very close to removing the thread, decided to see how it played out. I was  :sweat: it trying to decide what to do.  :surrender:
I know we all feel that we need to "justify" the decisions we make. Let try to justify without emotion as we are all trying to help each other and others still trying to get here.
Glad to see Linda posting of her experiences in Aus so far. Keep those posts coming Linda.
 :hug: for everyone1

Offline frodo/maya

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Re: Tolerance Please
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2010, 06:15:30 am »
Hi Nolan
Thanks for your call for tolerance. I often go on about how happy we are here, and am worried I create the wrong impression because I don't mention the negatives (which there are!). The problem is that the threads on the forum called "What you don't like about New Zealand" end up sounding just as one-sided. Maybe we should start a thread (if it doesn't already exist) called: your top 5 favourite and least favourite things about living in NZ?!

Great idea will help the few of us that will arrive  O0

NicholaM2  O0 .
Start one like that...
SAKB.
Agree with SAKB ..... as always  :whistle:

Offline SaKiwiBoer

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Re: Tolerance Please
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2010, 06:34:34 am »
NicholaM2  O0 .
Start one like that...
SAKB. 

Agree with SAKB ..... as always  :whistle: 

 :2funny:  :2funny: Not a good idea  :nono: . You might be perceived as a bad *** like me...  :2funny:  :2funny:
Enjoy, SAKB.
21/03/2007-EOI submitted
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"Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." (Benjamin Franklin)

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Re: Tolerance Please
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2010, 06:34:34 am »

Offline frodo/maya

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Re: Tolerance Please
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2010, 06:51:20 am »
SAKB  :2funny: never thought of it that way   :eek: maybe I should rather be careful in supporting you then, I don't want to be labeled as a bad ***   :nunchucks: no ways man!   

 :2funny:

Offline Happy Expat

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Re: Tolerance Please
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2010, 07:11:19 am »

Glad to see Linda posting of her experiences in Aus so far. Keep those posts coming Linda.
 :hug: for everyone1

Thanks Heather O0 I love this site :smitten: Don't think I could ever give it up completely ;)


Offline Nolan

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Re: Tolerance Please
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2010, 08:16:31 am »
:clap:

Offline Shirls

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Re: Tolerance Please
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2010, 09:31:15 am »
 :surrender: :surrender: ok I was guilty too. However I am not going to appolgise, I have had enough of some people thinking they are better than others on this forum. We have all given up so much to gain a better life for ourselves and our families to get here, and I appreciate that for some the adjustment has not been as easy as it is for others. So I have decided to just click "ignore" when I see posts from that member, that way I can do my bit for keeping the peace....

but being a Leo I love a good scrap!! LOL

Offline Savayla

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Re: Tolerance Please
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2010, 09:21:13 pm »

So glad to see you're also reading the Bible...   ;)  :angel:
[/quote]

Ha ha .  Actually it was very similar, Lord of the Rings.   >:D

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Re: Tolerance Please
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2010, 09:21:13 pm »

Offline expat

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Re: Tolerance Please
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2010, 10:05:36 pm »
Missed the scrap so have no idea who said what about what.
However the issue of intolerance of the other side ( pro /anti )has always concerned me as well as saddend me.Some weeks ago the book Should I stay or go was mentioned. I read it and posted on it stating that one of the main points made in the preface was that on the topic of SA emigration the pro and anti or positive and negative group can really say each other sleg.Factually how things work out for people will influence how you respond but people are by make up the half full  or half empty type and most important I think jusfication for your present view or predicament is dominant- it is a survival thing.
I can honestly say when we left I was keenly aware of the reasons for leaving but mindful of the many to stay.I did not adopt a zealous attitude or bad mouth SA. When we arrived although we could recognize the benefits of NZ we were mindful of both the good and bad but found other saffers not keen to indulge about the negatives. We came back - partly as a result of an unsoliicted job offer. Similarily I have not bad mouthed Nz on my return.
Now for the nub - I think this intellectual and personality trait made me and my partner less suitable for emigration.

Offline ronaldd

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Re: Tolerance Please
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2010, 11:34:44 pm »
Expat,  moving here or moving back,  is in the end your own choice.
The people who matter, will always stand behind you and support you with what ever decide,  while also advising you of the pros and cons in a fair matter. They genuinely care.

As for tolerance , I don't think there is such a thing.  I think you either are or are not supportive of something.  If you are strongly opposed ,  you stay strongly opposed  regardless.  There is however moderation and self control.   So,  many of us were raised with the saying "if you don't have anything nice to say,  don't say it".  We were also raised with "if you cant say something to someone's face,  don't say it to their backs. 

On that point i think a forum like this is a quasi face-to-face discussion and instills an average amount of bravery (a certain amount escapism from your real world cowardice perhaps) , which ends up causing you to say something you think is to a person's face. 
This "face" does not show feelings and shock as you utter the words,  it waits for you to press the send button and with one unstoppable force,  delivers the message to the recipient without any moderation. .There in real life you might have decided to rather not say the rest of your thoughts. 

In the internet realm ,  on forums,  its perhaps a nice idea to "role play" the other person's reaction as you "talk" to them through your post. 

and remember...

2008-04-06 Landed
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Offline Departed

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Re: Tolerance Please
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2010, 11:45:48 pm »
This is a valiant gesture on your part, and as moderator, Nolan. Allow me to bore some members to death by responding with "an essay".

I am very concerned lately at the lack of tolerance of other's views especially of those that are unhappy in NZ  :-\

Fortunately there is a website that was designed specifically for this reason where people can at least find some vindication and affirmation if only in reading what other immigrants have to say. One can read everything on there without having to join the site. That website has been mentioned on this site before but was 'shot down' by members here as a place where 'Brits, Americans and Europeans moan about NZ but since we are from Africa it's different for us'.

At the end of the day, and thus far, the far majority of South African immigrants to NZ are from European (what  became "the West") stock. So it's not that bizarre to read what fellow Europeans/Westeners have to say. Most of us know that white people in RSA were trying to simulate European ways of being and doing and living in South Africa. Aspiring to Western standards. Trying to shut out Africa and African ways. Very little of white/European "culture" in RSA is unique. Melktert and Koeksisters are Dutch desserts. Biltong? Not that different in concept from Beef Jerky - American. Pap? That's African. We play the same (British) sports as fellow former British colonies. Etcetera. Therefore, IMO the "Westerners" on that website are not that different from the white South Africans. The standards they strive for are not that unfamiliar. Whether those are indeed the best standards to strive for, and whether "the West" have hogged all the resources for themselves and exploited non-Western countries to become that wealthy is another debate for another day of course ...

Having said that, I know that there were South African "coloureds" (only in South Africa eh ..?  :blush: ) that participated on that website too. Even one or two black Zimbabweans and of these two latter groups, they were in agreement that the racism they had experienced in NZ was worse/very bad compared to what they had experienced before!? Personally I doubt that as South Africa in particular is by and large a very, very racist place but I think it's the "stranger in a strange land" in addition to the racism experienced in NZ that exacerbated their experiences. It must be awful. To believe you're escaping racism (amongst other things) by moving to a country that proclaims itself to have wonderful race relations only to discover the truth in "godzone" as New Zealand is called by locals. Difference being of course that Kiwis (white New Zealanders) are completely oblivious to their own racism. They easily express their true feelings about e.g. Maori and Asians when they realise you're from RSA (as soon as you open your mouth) because they simply assume you're a racist (too). Well a fair few anyway. In public they act very PC of course. Underbelly ...

"Living in NZ is better than living in RSA" should really be expanded to "and Africa" on this board because, let's face it, we all run to "European"/Western dominated countries. But hey, "we can't really compare ourselves to those Europeans ... No, no, no"  ::) And we all left RSA "because of crime primarily" ... and "Africa is in our blood" .... But we don't relocate to other low crime African countries ...  Is it only me that can see the contradictions in there? Let's be honest people. We all want to live by "Western" standards. Many, if not most, non Westerners too. And those standards in New Zealand are substandard whereas they are sold by NZ as on a par. They're not.

Quote
New Zealand does not perform well in the Safety domain. Our road death rate was slightly higher than the OECD median in 2007, while data from 2003–2007 showed our homicide death rate was worse than the OECD median.

Our Economic Standard of Living results tend to be lower than those in many OECD countries. In 2004, New Zealand was near the middle of the OECD for population with low incomes and was higher than the OECD median for income inequality. In 2008, New Zealand was below the OECD median for market income per person.
http://www.socialreport.msd.govt.nz/comparisons/oecd.html


To me "better" does not make NZ wonderful by default. It can be a rather disappointing standard to go by if you're going to spend your life savings on immigrating and emigrating, move to the bottom of the world, spend a fortune for the rest of your life to visit family 'back home', fall in a rut as far as your career's concerned, and freeze in a draughty house that will cost you a fortune to insulate. As a right handed person it's better to break or even loose your left arm. But that's still not wonderful is it? Compare apples with apples, i.e. developed countries with developed countries and things look different. It's been said that the average family that emigrate to NZ spends about NZ$200 000 to set up their lives here. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10661699
But the standards here, IMO do not justify the money spent. If they did, then fair enough.

Quote
At current wage growth and exchange rates, New Zealand wages will be half those in Australia within seven years.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10664373


Most of us, including myself, are very happy here.

If you mean most South Africans that emigrated to NZ I will have to disagree. (Unless you meant "us" as in the active members of this website? With that I will agree. "happy camp".) Most South Africans are relieved to be here. In the beginning. (And the duration of the honeymoon period differs). However, distress pre-empts relief. And relief is a temporary reward and welcome improvement from being distraught. But relief wears off eventually and what keeps most of us 'inspired' and grateful is not that life in NZ is so amazingly wonderful but that things in RSA are that bad. As you yourself admitted:


[the "happy camp"] have just decided that compared to SA, the things that are not 100% here are a small price to pay and are willing to live with it because that was the mental decision we made.

Exactly. It's not wonderful. And do remember that most decisions invariably include an emotional component and one would have to be a very special and rare sort of human being to be able to live by "mental" decisions only. We are all human not?

But then indeed you qualified the above by also being honest in saying:


if the "happy camp", myself included, had to start mentioning things we are not 100% happy about, we would be moaning from now till next year.

I don't think anybody is asking for a 100% standard by the way, and most of us will admit that such a standard in political, social and environmental affairs does not exist anywhere. See above re standards. But accepting shoddy standards just because they are better than terrible standards ... well, it certainly can be done I suppose. Makes for a frustrating and challenging life though. A bit like jumping from the fire into the frying pan. Initially that's better too. Distress --> relief. Seems wonderful at first.


Calling the person that complained about something they didn't like in NZ a snob, ungreatfull, etc. serves no purpose but to stop the unhappy guys from airing their experiences for the benefit of others for fear of being shot down.

Agreed. It's the exact same knee-jerk approach and reaction to nay-sayers on websites such as "Homecomingrevolution". Pot and kettle come to mind. Not talking about the "bad stuff" and only "being positive".


 guys from the "unhappy camp", please realise that the majority of folks here ARE happy with their move and will have a tendancy to defend their decision to move to NZ.


Okay, now I'm convinced you mean "guys"/folks on this website. I firmly believe that the "unhappy guys" have mostly realised that and have taken their communications to either private messaging on this site or to e-mail. Or they simply don't join this site. How many South Africans are living in NZ currently and how many members does this site have..? And of the latter, how many are still in RSA? The "majority" on this site can happily reign over the "rebels". Or be defensive rather(!). Defensiveness is usually a sign of uncertainty or insecurity or a desperate cover-up. Perhaps "defend" was a rather unfortunate choice of word. I'm sure you meant something else. No matter.

Thanks for this input Nolan. I'm sure there are many who feel grateful and who will take up your invitation. Or maybe not ...

O ja. As ek iemand geaffronteer het?  :2funny:   :2funny:    :2funny:  maak alles bakgat nie?


« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 05:58:34 am by Departed »