New Zealand vs. USA

[Ostrich]

We're at a cross roads, and I'm interested in what those of you who've made the move would do in our situation.  Of course, I know there are no real answers, and it's just opinions, but I'd be interested in hearing what y'all think.

I'm a US citizen, and my husband is from South Africa. We've been married and living in Cape Town for 6 years, and I love many things about SA -- the beautiful countryside, the people and diversity, the winelands, the wildlife -- but I'm not to thrilled with the crime, and concerned with long term political stability, so we will be leaving SA in the next year.

We are trying to choose between New Zealand, and America. I've lived in the US for most of my life, and to be perfectly honest, I am concerned about state of the states. The divisive politics, the international policies, the lack of community in the cities and "me first" sort of attitude...but of course, you also have good salaries, lots of opportunities, etc.  Culturally, from what I've read online (albeit the NZ gov sales pitch), it sounds like life in NZ would actually suit our family better.

My husband is a senior manager in IT. I'm a housewife, but I work p/t online for a US company. We've got 3 small children, one nearly school aged. We've got some savings, but not much, so we need to make our choice carefully -- our plan was to apply for PR while still in SA, and then send my husband over on a few trips to interview, and hopefully have a job before we arrive.

We're a bit worried about finding jobs, expensive housing, weak education system, and the "no tall poppy" thing. Is this really an issue for many of you?

I've been lurking here for a few days, reading what everyone has to say, and have found it immensely helpful in getting to hear about New Zealand from people who've actually made the move. Thanks again!

[Ziegfried]

Hi, we arrived in NZ about 6 months ago. We are nicely settled in already.

From my perspective I would never consider the USA as an option. Things are just getting too "hot" there. The USA politics and economy are in shambles and it turned out to be the Orwellian state we were all warned against. Just to see how the ordinary citizens are treated there and the absurd new legislation and regulations promulgated there on a daily basis, then my advice is to stay as far as possible away from the USA.

I like New Zealand because it is very far from both SA and the USA - in my case I would have preferred to be even further away. Not because I dislike the countries, but because I dislike the way the countries are governed.  Did you know that they (USA) promulgated a bill yesterday that you are not allowed to grow your own vegetables in your own garden and sell or trade it? Then Bernanke is also seriously trying to destroy the country with the so called Quantitative Easing. Did you know that the USA GRANTED EMINENT DOMAIN AS COLLATERAL TO CHINA FOR U.S. DEBTS? (Eminent Domain is the power of government to TAKE private property for public use without the consent of the property owner.) It means that if they cannot repay their debts to China then China can take PRIVATE property of the citizens of the USA to compensate them. Google all these things if you don't believe me.

The USA is on a self destruct course. Just my 2c....

[zatexnz]

First things first.....    Ostrich and  Ziegfried

Ziegfried, what you say is really scary!  I did NOT know of the latest news about the USA.   

Ostrich, it's certainly a difficult choice you have there.  From an immigration point of view (solely paperwork and so forth), the USA would for you guys be the "easiest", seeing as you are already American.  And there IS a lot more opportunity to grow careerwise for IT people. 

On the other hand, politically speaking and looking at what is going on in the various countries, NZ certainly looks like a good option.

One has to take so many things into consideration though. 

We're a bit worried about finding jobs, expensive housing, weak education system, and the "no tall poppy" thing. Is this really an issue for many of you? 

For some, these issues are a genuine concern. 

IT would mean you have the choice of Auckland, Hamilton, Wellington, Christchurch as your main possibilities, and not necessarily in that order (I just listed from North to South).  That is not to say that you won't find IT jobs anywhere else. 

Salary-wise, you'll earn more in Auckland, but then again, housing is more expensive there.

The "Tall Poppy Syndrome" is real, even the Kiwi's are aware of it (we even had our pastor preach on it once - about people should NOT have that attitude!). 

Education can be a problem depending on what you're expecting from it.  This is an issue anywhere in the world these days (my opinion).  It has gone downhill because those in high places want the masses dumbed down so they can control them better.   I homeschool now.      

I myself, and my family lived in the USA for 9 years before moving here.  I got spoiled rotten there!! It's the land of convenience for sure!!  But as Ziegfried has said, things are going downhill there fast, and I can only say that right now, I'm glad that I'm not there.  I have some American friends there that have contacted me, and asked about immigrating here because they're very upset about what's happening there.  Unfortunately for the one couple, they are too old to do the move.

On the other hand, I see how NZ also has made some "interesting" moves... they sure look like they are just about in bed with China themselves! 

At the end of the day, it's still gotta be your decision, because it's your life, and your children's future.  I'd say it's a serious prayer-issue, if you're a praying person!

[Ostrich]

Thanks, Ziegfried and zatexnz!

The USA politics and economy are in shambles and it turned out to be the Orwellian state we were all warned against. Just to see how the ordinary citizens are treated there and the absurd new legislation and regulations promulgated there on a daily basis...

Agreed. It has been along time coming. With The Patriot Act, and now the government has claimed the right to hold citizens indefinitely without trial...it's a big mess. And, it's not fun to be treated like a criminal when traveling, with these airline pat downs and body scanners. I was actually in NY for 9/11, and understand the need for security. But really, they confiscated my 5-year-old's juice box and shoes last time we flew to the states for security purposes!  Even my child thought that was bizarre.

Did you know that they (USA) promulgated a bill yesterday that you are not allowed to grow your own vegetables in your own garden and sell or trade it?

Yes...and even before this, there have been restrictions since the 80s regarding food. The US has no home industry shops, for example, due to the fear that your fellow citizens might poison you. It was one of the things that surprised me when I first came to SA  -- you have lots of home industry shops here, and nobody seems too worried about dropping dead after eating a melktart. Americans are genuinely afraid of a lot of things, egged on by the media, and we end up with  strange response laws that then stay on the books forever.

Did you know that the USA GRANTED EMINENT DOMAIN AS COLLATERAL TO CHINA FOR U.S. DEBTS? (Eminent Domain is the power of government to TAKE private property for public use without the consent of the property owner.) It means that if they cannot repay their debts to China then China can take PRIVATE property of the citizens of the USA to compensate them.
The USA is on a self destruct course. Just my 2c....

That I didn't know. Wow! I will definitely read up on that. Then again, I had no idea about Hiroshima either until my husband told me about it -- amazingly enough, I managed to go to school for 13 years + 6 years of college, and never once studied Hiroshima. Sort of odd, don't you think? But, I am sure other countries also hide their dirty laundry, too.

Glad to hear you're enjoying NZ, Ziegfried!

[Ostrich]

IT would mean you have the choice of Auckland, Hamilton, Wellington, Christchurch as your main possibilities, and not necessarily in that order (I just listed from North to South). Salary-wise, you'll earn more in Auckland, but then again, housing is more expensive there.

Thanks! Hamilton was one we weren't aware of. The prices in Auckland do seem inflated (especially for wooden houses).

Education can be a problem depending on what you're expecting from it.  This is an issue anywhere in the world these days (my opinion).  It has gone downhill because those in high places want the masses dumbed down so they can control them better.   I homeschool now.      

Yes!!! We've been homeschooling in SA too, since our oldest is 5 and would be in school already if in the states. We also feel that education has taken a nose dive in many countries. No wonder China and India are kicking our collective Western backsides in the sciences and mathematics and technology.

I have some American friends there that have contacted me, and asked about immigrating here because they're very upset about what's happening there.

This is what worries us, too. If things do continue to move downhill, it might be tougher to get a visa at all, especially if the real skills-shortage folks (nurses, doctors, etc) also get the same idea about leaving.

I'd say it's a serious prayer-issue, if you're a praying person!

Thanks for all of the advice, zatexnz! We will, and appreciate the info you've shared.

[zatexnz]

I have excellent news for you!  If you're homeschooling, NZ is the BEST place in the world!!  The Ministry of Education supports it, and their only requirement is that you teach "as well as and as regularly as" at a public school. What a laugh!   PLUS they pay you as "teacher" an amount per student.  Just over $700 per annum for the first child, and over $600 for the second child.  You get paid 6 monthly in arrears.   There is an AWESOME home schooler's support group here in Hamilton - two in fact that I am a member of.  And annualy we have the HEART camp (Home Educators Annual RetreaT), which is a BLAST, and this year we had over 200 moms from around the country!  One can then buy new and second-hand curriculum and resources at the camp too.  We also have an e-group called Harvest Curriculum Swap, where books and resources get sold daily.  I can tell you now, my friends in the States that home school, do NOT have the same support as here, and they certainly are surprised to find that our MoE actually PAY us to homeschool!! 

[frodo/maya]

  to the family Ostrich and Ziegfried.

no advice for now, zatexnz has given you some excellent tips 

[Ostrich]

I can tell you now, my friends in the States that home school, do NOT have the same support as here, and they certainly are surprised to find that our MoE actually PAY us to homeschool!! 

Awesome -- that is quite funny (and very progressive). I was surprised that New Zealand gives out child benefits, too, even to middle class families!

[zatexnz]

Warts and all, you gotta love this place! 

[alwyn]

Its weird but year upon year I always come back to this forum as you guys are simply the best.

2 weeks ago I had my L1A visa application forms and requirements in hand to give to my US manager that was visiting.  It has been something that has been in the works for 5 months.  As I was about to give these documents to him he informed me that they were also closing down the department in India (as they were in Cape Town) and that he had to decide that he is going to take some of the Indians over to the US instead of me.

For the last few years I have wasted so much time putting off my own immigration process while waiting on opportunities that don't come to fruition.  There is still a small chance of the move to US becoming reality via another job at the same company.  It will be a step down as has been all jobs for the past few years and I probably won't enjoy it very much but I guess your kid's future comes with a price.

So January next year it is decision time again, Canada or NZ.

[Ostrich]

That really stinks, alwyn. It's totally unfair that you've been jerked around.

If it's any consolation, the US is having a lot of troubles. I called the US consulate in CPT today, and was told that they are only helping citizens for 2 hours per day due to new budget constraints, and then by appointment only. They are also limiting many services they previously performed. This is very surprising, but I'm assuming it's part of Obama's plan to manage debt. And, lets not even talk about the security measures...some large cities like NY are in serious lock down, with police lining the streets, searches of people and handbags, and signs with "If you see something, say something," being distributed. This is not how I remember my country from years ago.

I wonder about the US government and it's migration policy towards South Africans. I have heard of too many good people being mysteriously turned down at some point in the process, for seemingly minor issues like paperwork gaffs. I'm very suspicious that there is some reason for this, but maybe it's just me. 

[zatexnz]

Alwyn, I have first-hand knowledge of the messed up immigration system in the USA, and let me tell you, I think you've just been spared a lot of headaches and troubles. 

Canada is great - for those who LOVE the COLD... work-wise, it seems to be run by unions - if you're not in the union, you'll find it hard to get a job.  I have friends there, the guy in IT, who has had MAJOR hassles finding a job.  Only now after he went on a course to get Canadian qualification, did a job open up for him.  This is not the case for all of course, but just what I've heard from my friends over there.  I have many friends there that have not had these problems, and are really very happy there.  But you really have to LOVE lots of SNOW and COLD. 

NZ... well, you've read plenty on here, it's not paradise, but it's closer than many other countries..    LOL  Nah, really, there have been quite a few threads on here lately that should give you a fair idea of what NZ is like, good and bad.  One thing i CAN say is that it's probably the EASIEST country to immigrate to in the whole wide world!!

All the best with your decisions!!!

[alwyn]

Ostrich I must agree, the enigma of the US is that they deny people who can actually contribute to the economy while those who can't appear to simply walk across the border.

On the US side, seems that another department has an opening for me, although the salary is not bad it is less than what I would earn under normal circumstances and the type of job is also below what my experience dictates, but at this point in time I just want to get out of SA as soon as possible.  On the upside they are paying for most of my exodus.  Another point in their favour is that there are a lot of Saffers working for the company and it is effectively run by Saffers.

Still I won't place any bets on the GC process in the US.  The plan would be to get 'US experience' and save as much as possible, even starting the Canadian/NZ process somewhere along the line to hedge my bets.  I also don't like the fact that you have to give up US citizenship to accept another, I mean how am I going to retire in NZ?

I love NZ, especially the fact that no bears are going to chew on you on a camping trip, and I also like the rural setting of the South Island, but it is still far from anything else except Oz.

At 38 I can hardly spend 7+ years hoping for a greencard while my other options fade, a big concern.

[zatexnz]

7 years...     We were there 9 years, and hardly got in the system before being told we weren't wanted  anymore... friends of ours have managed to get to the "last phase", and been in that phase a few years, with medicals being lost, and who knows what... They've been there for 10 years, and still no sign of the actual GC.   

the other thing you have to take into consideration is that the USA (and I think Canada) are the only places on this earth that use 110V electricity.  So you have to sell all your electrical appliances (except your clothes dryer if you have one), and then if you decide on NZ instead of Canada, to retire to, you have to sell it all AGAIN...  Ask me, I KNOW... and stuff HERE in NZ is a darn sight more expensive than in the USA.  So if you're thinking of retiring here in NZ, you might as well make the hop now. 

Also remember, that you can't just "retire" in another country.  No country wants you to come and "live off them" without having contributed to the community... so unless you have a ton of money to INVEST here, or family that will sponsor you to retire here,  NZ ain't gonna let you in after 55.  Australia won't let you in after 45 or soon to be 50. 

So it's really VERY important to think it through as to where you want to settle.   If you are not interested in applying for the GC in the USA, then you will have a maximum of 6 years you can work there on a Work Permit. 

Just my input on what I know at this point.

[zatexnz]

Alwyn, My hubby just mentioned another VERY important issue:  If you go in on a salary below what you're worth - i.e. in comparison to  a US citizen in the same position, then believe me you will NOT get your GC.  The first phase of the GC process is to go through Labour Certification, which means you have to prove that no American can possibly fill your job, AND that you are earning a market-related salary for your job.  If you come in under the market-related salary, they will NOT pass you.  My husband could have been earning nearly double what he was, if he'd been working for a company like HP, Dell or Compaq, but because he was working for a food retailer, they could not pay him a Dell salary. The INS dictated what his sort of job should be paid, and when his employer had to "prove that he's not taking the place of an American", they had to offer that salary in the paper, under the qualifications dictated by the INS.  Because it was a Fortune 500 cpy he worked for, and the qualifications determined by the INS were so broadly scoped, a fresh varsity graduate would have been able to comply, they had 145 applicants on the first day!  Therefore they could not prove that they couldn't find an American for the job.  Now, if they had advertised his position, the way they would have done under normal circumstances, they would have stipulated a certain amount of years experience in various specific languages and platforms, and they would have advertised the position at the salary he was getting, they would NOT have had that many applicants.  Plus they'd have been able to eliminate applicants simply because they didn't like the name, his hairstyle or whatever.  But because it was for immigration purposes, they HAD to place the ad inthe paper the way the INS stipulated, and therefore their hands were practically tied.

So again. Don't waste your time taking a job in a country "just to get out of SA".  It's not a good enough excuse and you will be shooting yourself in the foot - not to mention the upheaval of having to immigrate TWICE.  Again, I'm speaking from experience, it's NOT easy uprooting your children just for your own retirement dreams.  If you're leaving South Africa for the sake of your children, then keep THEM in mind when you choose a country.  Right now, I don't think America is the place to be.  Obama is selling it out.

At least NZ is less likely to get personally involved in some stupid war.