Pros and Cons

[Marz]

So while bored today I decided to head over to the "Home coming Revolution" website to see what reasons people have for coming back to SA.  I found this gem :

"Push the crime aspect out of the way and then make a pro and con list…. Everyone seems to be stuck on the crime aspect of SA but there is so much more SA has to offer.  Take your blinkers off!!!  If we all have a positive attitude about SA and pull together we can make this country an awesome one."

http://www.homecomingrevolution.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5159

As much as I respect everyone for their opinions, and this lady was obviously only going over for her fiance, I still don't see it as valid to "Push the crime aspect out of the way".  Are we really wearing blinkers thinking crime is bad in SA, or is it those who stay that do? 

I also honestly don't see how we can "pull together" to resolve why SA is the top murder and rape country in the world per capita (Stats via UN and NationMaster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_South_Africa), at least not very quickly.  Until it does somehow get resolved, you're still living with 50 murders per day.

We're with a neighbourhood watch that sends out sms alerts of crime/activity in the area.  Last night someone was shot in the chest during a hijacking.  A colleague of mine was almost shot point blank to the head during a hijacking, but the gun jammed.  I have a feeling that until crime affects you personally, you tend to put the blinkers on, not the other way round.

Anyway, thought it would be interesting to discuss pros and cons of South Africa.  And feel free to put the crime aspect out of the way, or make it the deciding factor, depending on your views

[Savayla]

A very interesting topic and one dear to my heart.   I have also been on the homecoming revolution a while back.  And I do think they have blinkers on, to be honest. 

If not for crime, I would still be in SA, and dealing with the other stuff that SA is throwing at us.  But, I could deal with it. 

Was I ever badly affected by crime ?  No.  The reason being is that we consciously made decisions that would not put ourselves in trouble.  We hardly drove at night and when we did we would drive through red robots if there were no other cars around.  We never, ever went onto a beach when there was no one else there.  We had armed response, burgular guards, dogs inside, and at my parents house, we physically locked ourselves in our bedrooms using a gate with a padlock. 

We had so many near ones.  Had to be constantly aware of who was around us. 

We had friends and family badly affected by crime. 

I think those are HUGE cons.  When someone from the homecoming revolution years ago said that the crime stats had gone down, I said that this was not very true, it was because people were living behind bars (us ) and being more careful about where they drove or walked, that it seemed as if the crime had come down.  Stats can be so skewed. 

Here, we are so free.  And I mean ....freee.  Ask anyone on this forum with kids and they will tell you stories.  We send my two girls down to fetch the post which is about 700 m away, and I can't see them.  They happily go around our area with their dogs.  I am not worried about them in terms of crime, just cars as I find that my kids are not so street savvy and smart as these Kiwi kids who have been brought up cycling and walking to school since they are 4. 

I would say GO, in fact , RUN.  My only regret is that we didn't do this sooner. 

[thombatt]

We've been in New Zealand for just over a year, so maybe this is premature. To us moving has been taking blinkers off, and we have experienced so much more.

For our family we would not move back to South Africa, even if crime levels in South Africa were to fall to New Zealand levels. There has been so much more for us. We like the houses, we like living so close to the sea, we like been so close to spectacular scenery, we like the birds and animals and I like my new role and OH is enjoying the charity work she's been doing. We rate all these factors higher than the comparison situation we lived in, in South Africa.

I suspect that we will live in at least 1 more country, most likely Australia, before we finally retire, just to experience another country and what it has to offer, we've been bitten by the bug.

[cgs2k]

Don't get me wrong, I love south africa, the divercity the climaye, and most of the people, so why am I accepting a job offer in christchurch? It is safer for me and my family, why should my son grow up locked behind bars like a criminal wjile the criminals roam free? Cops look the other way, people look the other way, peak hour traffic and I see eveyone around me ignore the fact that I am trying to fight off 2 armed hijackers, at a red robot, the idiot in front of me refuses to even move his car out the way. Ignore the crime aspect, sounds nice, but until there is proper control and law abiding citizens can walk the streets safely again, sa will never improve.

I am now biding my time for my visa, hoping it will not take to long.

Will I miss sa, yes, but then again, my son can grow up without having to live behind bars.

[zerohennie]

Don't get me wrong, I love south africa, the divercity the climaye, and most of the people, so why am I accepting a job offer in christchurch? It is safer for me and my family, why should my son grow up locked behind bars like a criminal wjile the criminals roam free? Cops look the other way, people look the other way, peak hour traffic and I see eveyone around me ignore the fact that I am trying to fight off 2 armed hijackers, at a red robot, the idiot in front of me refuses to even move his car out the way. Ignore the crime aspect, sounds nice, but until there is proper control and law abiding citizens can walk the streets safely again, sa will never improve.

I am now biding my time for my visa, hoping it will not take to long.

Will I miss sa, yes, but then again, my son can grow up without having to live behind bars.

I agree 100% with you cgs2k

[SA3001]

I've seen the effects that lack of freedom and living behind bars has had on our teenage son, 15 when we arrived and now 16.  He's not as independent as he should be, he is still afraid to go exploring on his bike on his own and he is most definitely not street savvy when it comes to knowing the rules of the road and negotiating his way around on his bike.  I feel very sad for him as it will take a long time for the effects of living in SA to wear off    Old habits die hard and he still gravitates to his computer in his room a lot of the time.  He has freedom now but he doesn't even know where to begin with it    He has to be taught    Being held at knife point after school in the middle of the afternoon when he was 14 surely hasn't helped    He begged us ever since then to leave SA and I'm so glad we could do this for him and his little sister (4). SO DON'T TELL ME TO PUT THE CRIME ASIDE - HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE FOR ANY PERSON WITH HALF A BRAIN IN THEIR HEAD    My family's safety and security comes first and foremost.

[Marz]

Old habits die hard and he still gravitates to his computer in his room a lot of the time.  He has freedom now but he doesn't even know where to begin with it 

I'm wondering if we'll know where to begin with the freedom ourselves when we get to New Zealand, I can't imagine how difficult that must be for a teen!  At least he has a few years left of his teen life to learn how to relax and enjoy NZ!

For us the Pros and Cons are fairly similar to what I've read already on the forums:

Pros -

• Leaving the large amount of violent and everyday crime behind is the biggest factor
• 2nd biggest factor is the government - both the corruption, and the way they're running the country.  My husband is very pro-socialist, so in his mind the 1st prize would've been a move to Finland/Norway.  I firmly disagreed with that (Too cold!  Too dark in Christmas!) and I wasn't sure how easy it was to get in those countries.  I knew about New Zealand - we had friends go over a year or two ago, so it was more of a known entity.
• New Zealand being such a beautiful country, and similar/mild climate
• Slightly slower pace of life, less keeping up with the Jones
• Getting away from the constant reminders of South Africa's failures - how AA hasn't actually helped the black community, how BEE has only served to make the wealthy black elite wealthier, how the poor are getting poorer.  Constant racism (and sometimes very subtle racism) from the country's population, while putting on a brave "united" face to the world.
• My list of "if this happens... get out" was pretty much met with Malema - the anti-white/boer hidden sentiment has been exposed.  I'm not sure how far it extends, maybe Malema is a special snowflake in his hatred, but I'm not willing to bet money on that... It was already looking bleak with the stench of corruption surrounding our own President, mis-handling of farmland that was bought as successful farms and then mis-manged into the ground (echoes of Zimbabwe starvation after lands were taken forcefully...), the start of media silencing in the secrecy bill.

Cons-
From what we read, New Zealand has a few "issues", namely :

• Sometimes poor housing, damp houses
• Colder, wetter climate (Depending on where you live)
• Having to come over without PR and attempt to secure a job offer - our adviser re-assured us we wouldn't have a problem with the job market being very good in IT, but it's still a concern
• Leaving family behind (For me mainly, my husband isn't as close to his family)
• New Zealand apparently has a drug/youth problem, drinking is a past-time and a large percentage of those on welfare aren't too bothered to actually try find a job (If the Southern Man and other bloggers are to be believed?)

I've been told a few times already, by colleagues that said "They would've gone over in a minute, but their wives couldn't leave their family behind".  It's interesting that I also took that position 2 years ago - we decided back then that we wouldn't go over with our friends, I couldn't bear to leave my parents behind.  But now... I realise that time is ticking, we only have a certain number of years to easily immigrate, and parents are not guaranteed to always be around for whatever reason.

As for our pros vs cons above, we realised we can get around some of those problems - carefully select rentals, live further North to avoid too cold a climate, Skype etc.  Crime is obviously much less in NZ in spite of the drug problem (Which is probably over-reported/highlighted by the news because "Oh noes, we have some kids taking drugs", instead of "Yet another burglary left family slaughtered" type news.)

We can't do much against the crime in SA (As someone else mentioned, you can pay $$ for a secure home, in a secure area, but it's going to be that one time you had to go into Kwa mashu and got hijacked that could ruin your life).  We can't do a thing against the government (other than go into politics maybe? Not really a career option I'm interested in).  So New Zealand is our goal, and we're going to absolutely make it work, failure not an option   

[Gypsymom]

It does take a while to stop being paranoid, but oh when it clicks in!!! I can take my dogs down to the beach early in the morning and there is absolutely no-one around. The silence and the space is a wonderful feeling, and knowing that nobody is going to jump out from the sand dunes and attack me. I can go out alone at night and when I drive up my driveway into the garage, I am not looking over my shoulder the whole time, scared that there is someone lurking there.  Actually I very seldom went out at night on my own in SA. I can go for a walk at any time, anywhere.  Backpacker walk from one end of NZ to the other and don't worry about getting attacked.  Yes I know there is crime here, but it is not the hate filled violence that is in SA.
Love it here.

[frodo/maya]

We weighed all the pros and cons and when we allocated a weight to crime, the weight was just too high compared to everything else we had to sacrifice. The fact that people in SA became desensitized towards crime was also something quite serious for me.  I am a Christian and every morning in SA I prayed and asked for patience and for the strength to accept the things I cannot change, but as soon as I turned the radio on and I hear about all the crime and unfairness, it became very very difficult to apply that patience.  SA took our peace away; I was in inner conflict every single day about all the things that are so terribly wrong.

NZ gave us as a family inner peace. We are happy and safe. We miss our family terribly (especially at this time of the year) but that was one of the big sacrifices we had to make. One cannot have your bread buttered on both sides. My teenage daughter also struggled with the freedom because she was not brought up in that way. She is so happy now and both my children have embraced everything NZ has to offer.  I wish that we have also done this sooner.

One does not know what you miss out on when you are in SA, you get so use to everything there but the way one has to live in SA is NOT the norm. The way we live in NZ is the norm, this is normal.

[thombatt]

Homecoming Revolution is a joke.

The lead article is dated 4 November 2010, that's over a year ago! Have there been no success stories since then? The jobs advertised on the site are more than 10 days old, or the portal is not available, so I don't think any agencies are using the site as prime source of skills. Under money matters the latest article is dated July 2010.

To me it smacks of a site that is no longer regularly maintained, but as yet nobody has had the guts to shut it down and admit it is no longer effective.

By the same token, if the NZ stats are anything to go by, emigration from South Africa has declined by about 60% since its peak about 3 years ago.

[SA3001]

One does not know what you miss out on when you are in SA, you get so use to everything there but the way one has to live in SA is NOT the norm. The way we live in NZ is the norm, this is normal.

Agree 100% 

[Savayla]

  My husband is very pro-socialist, so in his mind the 1st prize would've been a move to Finland/Norway.  I firmly disagreed with that (Too cold!  Too dark in Christmas!) and I wasn't sure how easy it was to get in those countries.  I knew about New Zealand - we had friends go over a year or two ago, so it was more of a known entity. [/li][/list]

We could get into Norway as I am a Norwegian Citizen .  However, my sister lived there for 14 years, and came back.  It is so different from SA.  It is very cold.  It is peaceful, best socialist country, but it is so far away and is just not the same. 

Cons-
From what we read, New Zealand has a few "issues", namely :

• Sometimes poor housing, damp houses

We have lived in 3 houses in NZ.  Neither of them have been damp or cold.  They are around !! 

• Colder, wetter climate (Depending on where you live)

Nelson is not as wet or windy as Cape Town.  So it does depend on where you live.  We actually look forward to winter now.  i would never , ever had said that a few years back.  It is the most beautiful place then and we have roaring fires and play in the snow.

• New Zealand apparently has a drug/youth problem, drinking is a past-time and a large percentage of those on welfare aren't too bothered to actually try find a job (If the Southern Man and other bloggers are to be believed?)

This did bother me when I read the NZ Herald for a few years prior to coming.  But since being here, I realise that this problem is everywhere in the world.  In SA, it is rife, but you don't hear alot about it.  And, there are a great many fantastic kids out there.  It is the minority, and they are rat bags.  Plenty of those in SA.

I've been told a few times already, by colleagues that said "They would've gone over in a minute, but their wives couldn't leave their family behind".  It's interesting that I also took that position 2 years ago - we decided back then that we wouldn't go over with our friends, I couldn't bear to leave my parents behind.  But now... I realise that time is ticking, we only have a certain number of years to easily immigrate, and parents are not guaranteed to always be around for whatever reason.


 carefully select rentals, live further North to avoid too cold a climate, Skype etc.   

Just remember that further North and you have more Maori's and all that .  Not saying that is a problem, but there are more gangs, drugs, etc .  And, it rains more than other places. 


Don't know if my quotes / unquotes worked.  Bimbo here.

[zatexnz]

fixed the quotes for you Savayla! 

[zatexnz]

When we left SA, it wasn't as bad is it is now...  but these were the reasons we decided to try other pastures:

1)  At the time, my husband was struggling to go forward in his career (this was before BEE, but after AA), and his age was making it more difficult to switch jobs at will (he's also in IT)

2)  We didn't have kids yet, but when we thought about having a family, we thought about education (at the time not thinking about home-schooling, which had only just recently been made legal in SA), and already then, the education system in SA was going down- the standards were being lowered, etc.

We went to the States first, and it was only after being outside of SA for 6 months that it suddenly HIT me that I wasn't living with that perpetual fear.  I was walking across a road, at night, alone, 7 months pregnant, and I didn't fear somebody going to jump out at me, there were no lurkers hanging around the trees (note this was when car-hijacking was still in its infancy in SA - 13 years ago).  I cannot IMAGINE the perpetual fear you guys still in SA have to live with NOW. 

I am SOOOOOO glad we left when we did, and that my kids, now aged 10 and 12, never had to live behind burglar bars, not being allowed to ride bike freely in the neighbourhood or go to the park without me.  My son rides his bike alone up to 3km from home.  I have no fear.  It's incredible. 

Do I want to go back to South Africa?  Not to live... not permanently, but I definitely want to go back to visit (haven't been back since 2005 for my moms funeral).  This time I want to take my kids and show them the whole country, visiting friends of ours that I miss... friends that I know will never immigrate, not because they have blinkers on, but because they cannot, or because they feel that it is God's will for them to stay.  And I respect that.  I don't judge those that remain behind, or those that want to go back.  Sometimes it does boggle my mind why they would want to... other times, I fully understand. 

Either way, I know one thing.  We each have our own lives to live, and we have to make our own choices.  We have to weigh up our own pros and cons and make our choice, and then we have to live with our choice, and make it work.  And all the best to all of you still making that choice!

[Savayla]

fixed the quotes for you Savayla! 

You are a star !!!!  Bought my ice-cream machine with my Fly Buys and it is brilliant.