SA Going to NZ Advice Forum

Getting Started => Stay or Go? => Topic started by: Nolan on April 28, 2010, 03:15:16 pm

Title: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Nolan on April 28, 2010, 03:15:16 pm
I have notice over the past few years that there is a definate change in the mindset of the South African immigrant, irrespective of the country they are emigrating to. I know it's the same for all countries, but I am going to use NZ as an example because we can relate better than having to reference worldwide all the time.

In order for me to explain this change in mindset we have to look at the variables that have changed.

The immigrants of the 1980's and 90's who left SA were just plain sick and tired of all the nonsense and some frankly not prepared to live under a black president. Although the violence and crime was already starting to spiral out of control, SA was still by and large - for white SA'ns anyway, a peaceful place and very few of us had been touched by it. Most however knew somebody that had been affected by crime and violence. SA was also still a place where you had to abide by the rules or face the long arm of the law.

Those were the days with no Internet and no support base in their new country, they were literally blazing the trail for the flood that would follow - (us) ;D

These ex-pats had it really hard as the guys back in SA accused them of being traitors and sellouts while their host countries still had this image in their minds that every single white Saffer is a heartless, murdering racist. An image built up through years of bollocks and semi-truths fed to them by the media. These guys had to fight their way in here because they were not really welcomed with open arms because of this image and the Kiwis frankly didn't believe the horror stories they told. You could almost say they were dumped at the airport and left to fend for themselves. That is why I suspect the Kiwis see SA'n immigrants as arrogant, it comes from that need to elbow your way in or you aren't going to get anywhere. They really had to adapt or die trying here. There were no soft landings in those days.

Nowadays however, things are vastly different. We have all had the huge advantage of surfing the internet and sites like this one to find out from the guys who left before us what things are like in NZ. We have had the opportunity to plan and ponder and chop and change our minds on silly things like where to stay. We have been able to "visit" shops like Countdown and Foodtown to plan our budgets, visit sites like Trademe and Seek to get an idea of how much we can expect to earn, heck we even get to listen to Kiwi radio stations online before we arrive here.

Most of us had friends we could stay at when we arrived or at worst had accommodation booked well in advance. In fact we have all actually suffered from information overload, that is how "soft" our landings have been lately.

We however have come from a much more violent and crime ridden SA than the SA the immigrants from the 80's and 90's had left behind. I would even go as far as saying that at least 90% of us have a direct family member who has been affected by the crime and violence going on in SA at least once. SA today is a lot more gung-ho now, you can break many laws, like speeding or paying off a police officer and nobody bats an eyelid.

To sum up the differences between the "early" immigrants and the "now" immigrants :

Early - The ration between feeling we "want to leave" and we "have to leave" was 80/20
          They had to ekke out an existance in a "foreign" land, that was very difficult and they
          knew it was going to be.
          They came in drips and drabs and were few and far between.
          They HAD to become Kiwis because there was no SA support base.

Now -  The ratio between feeling we "want to leave" and we "have to leave" is now 20/80
          We know what is waiting for us down to the last detail and we don't expect it to be that
          hard because of the support base we have built up and the research we have done
          beforehand.
          There are bucket loads of us here now, you can't go anywhere without hearing Afrikaans or
          a SA'n English accent.
          You can now live here for the rest of your life and only have ex-Saffer friends and only
          speak English when you have to. The urgency to integrate has dissappeared.

It is these fundimental differences that has changed the immigrant mindset of today and the perception of Saffer expats in general.

You see despite the fact that we all tell each other that immigration is difficult, we don't believe it and often don't experience it. We come too well prepared. How can you possibly lose the "battle" when you have studied every last detail of your "enemy" and made every last plan of attack long before the "battle" commences?

We have welcoming parties of friends and family waiting for us at the airport when we arrive. We have brother and sisters to stay at until we find our own place. They chauffeur us around looking for cars and houses, they show us the shops, tell us what to buy and not to buy, and tonight we have a lekker braai with real boerewors bought at Foodtown or Mad Butcher. It's so refreshing not contending with those stupid "car guards" and beggars at every robot anymore. It's lekker that everybody drives properly without stressing and you wanting to kill the guys that push in in front of you on your way to work anymore. This is the way things should be. It's just like Joburg at the sea.

POOF, just like that all the things that irritated us from SA are now gone and we have instantly forgotten why we left. I think everybody that has been here for a few months or more will agree that they have all had this sudden eureka moment where you suddenly realise that somethings missing - all the things you hated about SA are gone and you never really realised how calm you are. It usually happens when you are driving in the car for some odd reason.  ;D

Then reality starts setting in, Countdown in Albany Mega Centre is not the Pick and Pay at the East Rand Mall. Work is not so easy to find and when we do find work it's not a manager job like we had in SA and worst of all we need to clean our own houses. Not "real" brick houses, matchboxes mind you. Real brandy costs a fortune and you can't get those lekker cheap cigarettes that were smuggled into SA from Zim at the Cafe anymore. You have to drive to the speed limit because the car behind could be a cop and the next Saffer meet up is only next month.

The point I am making is that because we come here so well prepared, we expect things to be easy, when we land when they are not. We expect things to be the same when they are not. We also have an added emotional baggage that the early guys didn't have and that is the knowledge that we can't go back even if we wanted to. They still had that safety blanket keeping them reassured while they settled in. Non of those guys called themselves refugees. More and more we are considering ourselves as refugees now. I know I consider myself to be a "willing refugee".

All this combined is making us frustrated emotionally, especially when things don't work out as planned. The problem is to the Kiwis this behaviour appears aggressive and it probably is given how agressive we have all become in SA. So now the Kiwis are starting to view us arrogant AND aggressive and that is not a good thing. Amongst ourselves we are also more highly strung than before because of the urgency required to emigrate that exists at the moment.

We need to realise these differences.
We need to work on our emotional baggage that we are lugging around so that we can get rid of it before we destroy our image entirely.
We need work hard to turn around this growing perception of us.
We need to realise that when we arrive here we are seen as just another immigrant from a foreign country, so we need to work harder than the next guy to get back to where we were in SA.
We need to be greatful every day that the Kiwis have given us the opportunity to come here and live in peace and safety.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: frodo/maya on April 28, 2010, 07:29:33 pm
Wow Nolan !!   :twothumbs: :twothumbs:  :not_worthy: :not_worthy:

If we (saners) try to remain grateful and privileged to be granted an opportunity to make a new life in NZ, life will be so much easier for the ones that follow. We are not there yet and the negative perceptions of saners in NZ can make it very difficult for us to make a successful move.  :'(

For all of you in NZ , I only have one thing to say........ you do not know what you have and try to remember that there are many people in SA that wish that they were in your shoes O0 

Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Clarikdeens on April 28, 2010, 08:46:16 pm
Thanks, Nolan :clap:
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Mongrel Mobster on April 28, 2010, 10:32:04 pm
Food for thought Nolan, Thank you. Excellent post!
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Clarikdeens on April 28, 2010, 10:53:55 pm
Schalk, I sincerely hope that you will still stay with us and not leave.
Greetings from me :wave:
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: JAMOMA on April 28, 2010, 10:58:53 pm
Wow, what a good read.!!!

The big boss has summed it up  O0

I must agree that I think the "desperation" factor is huge.


We have to succeed here at all cost.............
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: SaKiwiBoer on April 28, 2010, 11:34:08 pm
 O0  Good one Nolan.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Mumtaz (CapetonianInWellington) on April 28, 2010, 11:43:54 pm
Excellent post Nolan!!!!
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: LoveNZ on April 28, 2010, 11:56:12 pm
Grote Nolan :clap:
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: NicholaM2 on April 29, 2010, 02:54:07 am
An exceptional post. Thank you for your post, Nolan. It's thought-through, first hand insights like yours that are truly helpful to all of us.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Tauxxen on May 05, 2010, 03:39:03 pm
Hi there every1 sry im a new member to this forum and this is my 1st post
I didnt want to start a new topic wasnt sure where to but i got a question if some1 can plz give me some info sry to be a bit off topic
Currently i live in Edenvale jhb married with 2 kids 4y old son and 2months old baby girl we dicided that we cant live in sa anymore especially for safety of our children and really want to immigrate to NZ we did some research on how when where and the country itself but i just want to find out i am a skilled butcher/chef with deploma used to work in my fathers butchery . I am the manager at thier spar atm and have been doing it for 9 years was just wondering if any1 know where i can apply for a butcher job or if any1 knows some1 that has a butchery and how much they earn monthly in NZ + my wife is a qaulified bookkeeper if there is a demand in nz for bookkeepers  Its just something i need to find out before we make the decision to go to NZ thx
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: SaKiwiBoer on May 05, 2010, 07:53:02 pm
  :welcome: Tauxxen and family. I don't know too much about "butchers" but I think you may not have a problem there. With your wife being a "bookkeeper" there is no problem, that I'm sure of. This country always needs good qualified and experienced people, so my advice is get your things started and get your "behinds" over here, asap....  :2funny: . Enjoy the ride.
Cheers, SAKB.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: ronaldd on May 05, 2010, 08:19:24 pm
Nolan, I started reading your post a few times,  and guess what it was about.
Actually,  I was partially wrong which was refreshing.

The north shore saffers have a reputation,  even down here in wellies.  Because there is no other place,  from what i can see,  such a high concentration of saffers,  alot of folks here make comments about their nephews and friend's children getting an SA accent in school because teachers and children all come from SA.  Not that i think that is a problem because i kind of like our language but somehow i feel they see it as a negative.

Yeah,  every time a saffer breaks the law and makes the headlines,  i cringe.  It is like he/she let us all down.

I am still hoping to move to the north shore :D  I haven't lost that dream yet.  It was the first place i roamed when i landed in NZ so it has super hero status only because i had stars in my eyes.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: robcraignz on May 05, 2010, 09:27:46 pm
 :not_worthy: :not_worthy: Yo, Yo, Yo indabasita Nolan, you are to wise. :congrats: :not_worthy: :not_worthy: Your post sums up so perfectly, the points I was trying to get across last week (thread closed due to unpleasantries and rightly so). You must be, or have been involved in the Media at some point in this or a previous life - you have written with insight and empathy, factually yet with immense sympathy and knowledge. Thank you soo much for this. I really hope all read and take note of your insight. Maybe we also, take cognicance of your comments and adapt our ways, to become the asset to New Zealand we shouold be. You are so right about the "not being able to go back" part, never really thought of it that way until now, so sad. But thank you for this post, for all our sakes, we are genuinely  :not_worthy: :not_worthy: :not_worthy: :not_worthy:
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Nolan on May 13, 2010, 09:25:37 pm
Hi have received a reply from somebody that immigrated here in the 90's and the person has given me permission to post it here as I think it adds a very valuable insight into the subject :

"Hi Nolan

I’ve read your contribution, a change in mindset on the forum and would like to share some of my experiences and try to relate them to what I perceive is happening now.

I decided to emigrate from South Africa in the late 70’s, while I was still at school. It was only after I completed my higher education that I seriously started to do my planning and getting into gear. In 1990, when I left FW De Klerk had only recently taken office and the reforms he started had only just been announced. By that time all the work to get to NZ had been done and I wasn’t stopping, so a lot of my decision making was based on conditions pre this event. I am of an English background and quite frankly felt like a second class citizen within South Africa. I also had army camps going potentially on for ever and could only for-see a continuation of the township civil disobedience becoming worse. I did not for-see the crumbling of the Soviet block and what effect this would have in South Africa. Crime was also starting to become an issue.

Just so you can get a feeling of the differences between then and now I’ll explain what I had to do for my application. In those days there was no such thing as a work permit and all applications had to be full PR applications. There was effectively no internet and the NZ government had no presence in South Africa. They didn’t even have a double tax agreement with South Africa, that’s how bad the relationship had been till then. My entire application had to be done in hard copy through the NZ London embassy. I managed to get a friend to post the application form to me, completed it myself and returned it via courier. I will always remember the letter I got saying I had been granted my PR and that I was to present my passport to the London embassy to have the visa’s pasted in. How the heck was I going to do that from South Africa? I had to courier my passport to a friend, who then kindly stood in line at NZ House and couriered it back to me!

Exchange controls were significantly tighter in South Africa at that time. The business travel allowance was R15 000 p.a. and although the exchange rate was 2:1 then that was not a lot to get started.

Conditions in NZ need also to be taken into account. Up till the 1984 Rogernomics changes NZ would never have been considered a desirable place to move to. It was very much a backwater. Immigrants to NZ in the late ‘80s/early 90’s were effectively the first immigrants NZ had seen and there was a lot of reaction to Chinese immigrants, a lot of whom were taking out insurance policies with the British hand over of Hong Kong being planned for in 1999. Immigrants, I believe, were viewed with a lot of suspicion. A lot of NZ knowledge of South Africa was what they had learned from the ’81 tour to NZ, not forgetting that the South African government had until the ’78 tour effectively forced selection criteria on the AB team by refusing to allow Maori players to tour to South Africa. Sakiwiboer says he still sees this in the country, well views in the country tend to last longer than views in the city.

I arrived at Auckland airport not knowing a single person, knowing only the bed and breakfast I was going to stay at. I had no idea how much a house cost, all my data was at least 6 months out of date (it all had to be got via snail mail by writing to estate agents in NZ, asking them to forward one of their brochures), I had no idea how much it cost to rent anything, I had no idea what my employment prospects were like, other than the fact that I had got a whole lot of points because of my skills and education in my application for PR. I had no idea who sold what and what it cost. This would have been the case no matter what country I emigrated to though.

Laptops were effectively non existent. To apply for a role I had printed multiple copies of my CV before leaving. To do a cover letter one had to write it out by hand, go to a typing agency, get them to type it, pay for that by the page and send your application.

It took me three months to land a role in Wellington with a large corporate, in retrospect that was quick! I had to go through all the “no kiwi experience” and was eventually hired by a Canadian. I was to stay with that company for 8 years. I survived countless restructures and I agree with sakiwiboer that companies are far less nurturing than South African companies, but I suspect that has a lot to do with the relative skills shortages. I knew nobody in Wellington when I arrived. I had to make kiwi friends, mostly from the place I worked or have no social life whatsoever. I am still friends with many of them today, even though we are scattered around the globe.

I think you can agree that it was much more difficult from the NZ side of things in the process, but was probably easier on the South African side (geting Police Clearance certificates etc).

During those 8 years I became a NZ citizen. You had to be in NZ for 3 years to become a citizen in those days. In 1998 I was finally made redundant by the company I worked for (some people say you have not experienced the NZ workplace until you’ve been made redundant). Certainly I never had a SA company include redundancy clauses in my contract of employment and was astounded as to how much of my NZ contract was allocated to redundancy.

I then left NZ for Australia, worked for an Australian corporate until I decided to open my own business. I am now also a citizen of Australia.

Well after all that blether here comes some of my observations about NZ, its immigration policies and South African immigrants in NZ. They come in no particular order and are a bit unstructured and by implication are my opinions.

I agree with your point that the reasons for wanting to leave and have to leave. Unfortunately I am beginning to think that some South Africans are thinking more like “we have to leave and you have to accept us, why are you making it so difficult?” Certainly I have come across a specific post in a forum about South Africans emigrating to Australia which blatantly expressed this view. I have also noticed it a bit in the forum, especially people complaining about the catch 22 of getting a WP and getting a role. I don’t deny the situation exists but I think it is forgotten that a WP is designed to be given to people with roles in NZ, it is not designed as part of the process of getting PR. It is more designed for someone who has a role and if they like NZ and that if they decide to stay in NZ their work experience in NZ should be counted towards their PR application. A similar situation exists within Australia with 457 visa’s been the equivalent to a wp in NZ. In Australia the next step in the process is for the employer to sponsor people for PR (assuming they couldn’t get it anyway). Some South Africans have been surprised when their employer has refused to sponsor them and have advised that they only ever intended to employ them on a short term basis (the length of their 457 visa).

There is a skills shortage in NZ, but it is less acute than it is in South Africa. Some immigrants I don’t believe have caught onto this nuance. Also NZ employers are much more structured in their hiring process and will not just hire the first person who has the right skills that they come across. This has been frustrating to many people, but it could be argued that the NZ structured approach results in better business decisions (well the per capita wealth of NZ has outgrown RSA significantly in the last while, which gives some credence to that view). Many people have expressed frustration with NZ business methodology and the desire to consult at every point in the journey of a venture, but it may well result in better business decisions, I’m not sure.

The SA immigrants of the 80’s/early 90’s I believe were mainly English as opposed to Afrikaans. I believe that this made their ability to integrate into NZ easier. Some of them would also have left because of their desire not to live under the then National government and may well have been ashamed of their South African roots. This, together with their common language made integration easier. They also “wanted to go” as you put it. Most of these immigrants will now be citizens and I suspect that this is one of the reasons why official statistics show less than one would expect for people with South African background. Now more Afrikaans people are moving because they “have to go” and as a result are more determined to retain their culture and want to uplift what they had and just put it down in another place. It will be a sad day when mainstream NZ starts to include South Africans as an immigrant population that doesn’t want to integrate into NZ society and the issues, concerns expressed by mainstream NZ that surround the Chinese and Muslim immigrant population (something that I consider to be an ugly issue in both NZ and Australia) start to be directed to South Africans too. To some extent the “aggressive” and “arrogant” tags are the start of this.

There has been a fair bit on the forum about how NZ needs immigrants and that they are a positive factor to growth. I agree with this, but I think people forget that NZ may not care where these migrants come from. There may be a desire to have a nice compliant migrant contributing to growth rather than a stroppy migrant contributing to growth. You will know better than I but I believe it is quite easy to start discriminating particular migrant nationalities by a change in policy by NZ immigration. For instance South African education could start not to be recognised and not count towards points. Also South African migrants tend to be “poorer” than say their say British or Chinese cousins. This is a combination of exchange control and the exchange rate. The “have to go” mentality will also be attracting people of lesser means in South Africa, those people in say the UK would not consider moving. Certainly if you consider the number of ITA’s issued to South Africans (who will be mainly white) relative to the no. issued to Brits would suggest that there are more South Africans than Brits per capita (this is not a well structured way of putting this), and therefore by implication of lesser wealth. The ZAR/NZD exchange rate and property values in RSA do not help the wealth profile of a South African immigrant vs. say a Brit or Chinese immigrant. I suspect that a lot of South African immigrants will find it difficult to re-enter the property ownership equation (and immigration and an increasing population adds to the supply issue makes it even harder in this regard). South African immigrants tend also to arrive with little retirement savings, which will result in issues in the future. It also means that South Africans are probably on the lower side of wealth creation in NZ. (an argument developed by logic rather than facts, fully admitting that all the facts may not be known by myself). That said I believe that South Africans will be more determined to succeed (they have to, there is no going back as you put it) and this may well alter the equation completely in the future. I hope they do.

NZ as a backdoor to Australia often comes up. It is not as easy as people think. While NZers may live and work in Australia, without restriction they are required to apply for Australian PR to become citizens. The criteria for NZ’ers is the same as any other person, other than they may do it onshore, including the Australian 45 years old cut-off point. NZ’ers do not qualify for a number of Australian benefits unless they obtain Australian PR. A NZ’er in Australia (this is all post 2000 entrants) ranks between a person with PR in Australia and someone with a work permit. Also I believe that the immigration policies between Australia and NZ are diverging (it is more difficult to migrate to Australia). There is also a whole debate going on in Australia about migrant levels and how big Australia should get. There could well be a further tightening up of the rules between Australia and NZ.

I hope my frequently unstructured rant puts a slightly different slant on things and tries to look a little further than the immediate present.

Regards
An Early Immigrant"
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: cyclewife on May 13, 2010, 10:03:49 pm
Very good perspective from "An Early Immigrant".....
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: robcraignz on May 13, 2010, 10:47:17 pm
"An early immigrant.....", thank you very much for your contribution. it does show new perspective and one I hadn't considered regarding the source of SA 'aggressive / arrogant' behaviour. It is that behaviour I have been encountering quite often and dislike, especially the way we conduct ourselves in Their(NZ) country. I do understand the problems facing SA's trying to leave, but cannot condone ill behaviour and the expectation that others (NZ or OZ or other) should be responsible for the solution to our problems. Best stop there, don't want to incite the inflaming arguments previously posted on this topic. Many thanks for your time and incite, many a word needs understanding and acceptance into our lives, especially for integration into a new life, and not as you say: "are more determined to retain their culture and want to uplift what they had and just put it down in another place."  O0 :twothumbs: :not_worthy: :not_worthy:
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Clarikdeens on May 13, 2010, 11:47:27 pm
This is an excellent post that we should constantly come back to time and time again. It should be read again and again just to keep reminding ourselves why we are here and how to conduct ourselves in our host country. It is a privilege to be here and not a right.
Common decency and good manners behoves us to act accordingly.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: SaKiwiBoer on May 14, 2010, 01:42:59 am
  :not_worthy:   :not_worthy:
  :clap:   :clap:   :clap: Thank you for your post. Very informative and incite full. Thanx. SAKB.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: MickeyD on May 14, 2010, 04:52:54 am
An excellent post by An Early Immigrant!!!  :not_worthy:

Nolan, we could make this post a "Sticky Topic", so that all may be able to find it and read it again, and again, and again ....
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: frodo/maya on May 16, 2010, 04:04:39 pm
Excellent post !!!! :not_worthy: makes one think.


Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: MetalFaerie on June 04, 2010, 09:54:30 am
So true

Nolan

Absolutely LOVE your post.

So true.  I remember being on holiday in Oz (in late 96 over new year early 97), came home to find that the driving on the roads made me nervous and uneasy (got all to used to it again quickly) and was surpised by how untidy Jozi looked.  It must be 10 times worse now because people say Edenvale (CBD) has deteriorated in the last few years.

But there is something different (and magical) about South Africa that just can't be found anywhere else and you're probably missing things you never thought that you would.

For instance, even though I struiggle to get myself to the gym, I actually enjoy Zumba (latin/hip hop dancing) once I get there.  I probably won't go to gym in NZ but can instead enjoy the freedom of safe walking and bicycle riding that I can't do here, which is why I joined the gym in the first place.

South Africans have a unique sense of humour that is not PC, we can laugh at ourselves and each other.  Seems NZ'ers have sense of humour failure or are just too PC, but that is a generalisation and I have met at least one true blue NZ'er who was very funny.  (he lived in Sydney)

And thanks to Early immigrant.

My uncle left Zimbabwe for Aust in 1989, with three kids under 5, having never been on a look see.  He said SA would head the same way as Zim and did not want to come down South.

My stepdad's parents and two sisters left Zim for Sydney back in 81.  Funny how my step aunt has worked hard to keep her Rhodie accent. (similar to Capetonian accent)  However all the cousins have true blue accents.  Especially my uncle who settled in Adelaide first and is now in Brisbane, couldn't understand what the kids were saying in 96.

My widowed moved us down here in 82.

These are the pioneers...

I'm rambling again...

The point is there is nowhere in the world like South Africa and even if the weather is similar and the people are similar, nothing will be exactly the same.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: SaKiwiBoer on June 05, 2010, 08:48:07 pm
MetalFaerie - You're right. No place can be the same as SA, not even SA  ::) .
The country that we all grew up in in the 60's, 70's or even 80's are long gone, never to return again. The next best thing is to go and search for your own happiness where ever you want it. I am sure the guys on the SI gets their own piece of SA happiness. The guys on the NI gets theirs and even the guys that have gone to Auzzie, gets theirs. It doesn't matter where you go, you just need to find happiness in yourself and in your surroundings then you'll be in your own "little piece of SA happiness". Cheers, SAKB.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: maanhaarleeu on June 06, 2010, 02:46:07 am
Nolan, that is a post I hope all potential migrants read and digest.  :smart: Thanks for posting it.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: robcraignz on June 08, 2010, 10:19:53 pm
Yes, Nolan, maybe a must read for anyone arriving on this forum for the fosrt time. That is a real eye opener and gives a brilliant overview of situation and expectations. O0 O0 O0
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Tui on June 17, 2010, 03:26:39 pm
Hi Nolan! As a newbie on the forum - I found that post......amazing, refreshing and witty, just great!

Now we, the Kiwiwannabe family have to get our butts on the next plane to NZ like......YESTERDAY!!



 
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Nolan on June 17, 2010, 11:16:46 pm
so what you waiting for  :whistle:
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Savayla on June 19, 2010, 01:26:38 am
Nolan, this arrogance of South Africans is something that I am battling with.  I am an ex Rhodie, ex Natalian, ex Cape Tonian.  Basically an english speaking  pavement special !!!  :2funny: :2funny:

I have read the posts about arrogant and rude attitudes from SAffers.  The first time I came across it though, was a shocker.  At a flea market, looking at knives, and this Kiwi told us straight that he did not like the South Africans with the accents.  And although we were standing right there, he belaboured the point.  I told him, quite politely, that I could not understand this.  Because, unless I am wrong here, the Afrikaans people that I know in SA, are the most polite, most  dignified people.  They are old school in terms of manners, are conservative and usually church going.  It does not sound right !!  But, he insisted. 

It has come up again, this time from a Dutch immigrant.  He says that he has to be careful what he says around the Kiwis as often it is construed the wrong way.  He has been here for 10 years !!  And he is a very quiet, nice, well mannered guy too.  It has got me thinking and what I have come up with , in my opinion of course, is that we Saffers, and more so the Afrikaaners, call a spade a spade, don't beat around the bush, and we are used to giving orders.  The kiwis, like to beat around the bush, will not tell you if you have offended them, preferring to keep it quiet to you, but not others.  You have heard them say "You might like to put that on the table "  Where we would say "Please put that on the table "  We have told them what to do, they have given us the choice.

They are very sensitive to humanity issues and class issues, and often we come across as being too forward and bullish.  This is the South African nature though.  We are much tougher and less cocooned than them.  We have been exposed to real, hard life in terms of all the violence that occurs in africa. 

Just my two cents.  Yes, I do think across all scopes you will find  some arrogant people, and they should think before they open their mouths.  But, for the rest of us, I think we are just misunderstood. 

Apart from the episode at the market though, the Kiwis I have met have been amazing and very helpful and friendly towards us.  But, we are not coming from a city, or office experience, but from the country, and maybe it is different there. 

Good post Nolan.  Very interesting reading about the early immigrant. 
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: MetalFaerie on June 21, 2010, 11:48:11 am
HI Savayla

I guess I am also an English speaking pavement special - ha ha.

I think I understand about the Afrikaners. (Saffers with Accents to the Kiwis).

I don't think they mean to - but they come across as looking down on you, if you are of a different culture to their own.

That is probably what is misconstrued.

As an English speaking person, I still come across Afrikaners who refuse to speak English and will always reply in Afrikaans, as they assume that all white people speak the language.
It does not and should not get any higher status than any of the other 11 official languages, so sticking to the International language of English just make sense.

I think this mentality is carried overseas where it's a case of 'accept us or else' and you forget that this is their country.

It's a critisism (arrogance) that I've heard from Oz too.

I think the only way to be truly happy is to fully integrate and become a kiwi, adopt  the accent ASAP, leave behind Afrikaans and SA culture.

Otherwise, you will be like the "whenwe's" of Rhodesia and 30 years later still be known as a 'whenwe'.

I was born there and I don't get how people still celebrate Rhodesian independence etc., We're South African now, accept it.

It will be the same in NZ.
We will be All Black supporters - ha ha!

Just like Charlize had to Americanize her accent in the States, we will have to "kiwinize" ours in NZ.

Can't wait mate!
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: addywads on June 21, 2010, 12:14:44 pm
My colleagues had a peek into my lunchbox today and said "Oh what have you got for smoko?"  Oh this and that and my naartjie, I said.  Thats a mandarin, they told me.  I said that I had called it a naartjie for 49 years so it would always be a naartjie to me so they laughed and  told me I was a Kiwi now and its a mandarin!  They WANT you to change and if it makes  it easier to be understood, then why fight it?  We are still South Africans at home and with our SA friends but we adapt when at work or with our Kiwi friends. 
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Chan in Wellington on June 21, 2010, 01:16:07 pm
 :o Great 'briefing' for those of us who are still in SA.  Immigration is no picnic, but what could be worse that living in sheer terror each day?  I cannot wait for the day that my kids can ride their bikes down a street again!!  Thanks for the absolute honesty of your post Nolan.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: alwyn on June 21, 2010, 07:49:54 pm
Actually the Afrikaans person who won't speak english has a complex because he really cannot speak english well and he knows it.  Its more the English speaking person who doesn't want to speak Afrikaans which has the snobby complex :)

But I digress,

Alas I think the arrogance has the following recipe,
1) Take Nationalism.  You have been told during the Apartheid years that you belong to a strong nation (and you do, but divided), that you are the best in every possible aspect of life, business, science, sports, etc.  In some you were and we only see the evidence now when we compare it to the New South Africa.  Regardless for decades there was little external inputs to cut us down to size.
2) No beating about the bush.  What you see is what you get and what you say better be for real or you are just not good enough. This is not necessarily bad as long as you don't behave like a digg because of it.  On the other hand the recent trend is to not have morals at all.
3) Point 1) is taken to personal levels.  This is reaching high levels in South Africa as your culture and race is being destroyed.  You are increasingly alone, you, your family against the rest.  So you are your own nation and your nation is special and nobody else measures up.
4) Ignorance.  Lets face it, very few South Africans have seen the rest of the world.  In short we do not know how to behave differently from what is acceptable in our thick skinned circle of friends.

Mix them all together and you have a dangerous combination.  If he wins he will tell you he is better than you, anything else and he will be equally arrogant because he cannot handle the truth.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Savayla on June 21, 2010, 09:21:52 pm
I don't believe in throwing my heritage away just because I am immigrating to New Zealand.  When I get citizenship I will be a South African Kiwi, before then, I am a South African living in New Zealand. 

As long as I am not arrogant about it, I can also teach the Kiwi's a new thing or two.  My friends here find it funny when I say granadilla.  They say it is passionfruit, I say it is granadilla.  They say mandarin, I say nartjie.  As long as we understand each other, we can both call it by the names we have learnt.  And if someone gets upset by that, well then, like my mom taught me and I teach my daughters, they are not worth having as friends then, so just ignore them. 

I was born in Rhodesia, but don't celebrate it.  I am half Icelandic, and celebrate Icelandic National Day every 17th June, I don't celebrate any South African days because I never did in SA, so why start now ?  I can love my country without the celebrations, and without being construed as a racist, can't I ? 

One thing you guys out there who are not in NZ need to understand is that the average Kiwi has no idea what it is like to live in SA, with all its huge emotional fears ,the crime, etc.  They don't understand, and I think they are lucky they don't.  So dont' expect them to feel sorry for you.  They can't .

Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: SaKiwiBoer on June 21, 2010, 09:39:58 pm
I don't believe in throwing my heritage away just because I am immigrating to New Zealand.  When I get citizenship I will be a South African Kiwi, before then, I am a South African living in New Zealand.

That is exactly why my "name" is SAKiwiBoer. I am a South African, becoming a Kiwi, but in my heart of heart's I'll always be a Boer. But I hope my kids fully become kiwi's because in 10 and 20 years from now I want them to think of themselves as kiwi's that were once from South Africa. But Kiwi's non the less. Cheers, SAKB.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: SaKiwiBoer on June 22, 2010, 12:02:23 am
Schalk -  O0 Mate. See ya later, SAKB
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: robcraignz on June 22, 2010, 12:08:06 am
Hey Schalk, good thoughts and sentiments mate. I do agree with a lot of what you say. My wife is born and bred Saffer. I am born Northern Rhodesia and rasied Saffer. So, I think that might explain why, I don't have such a hassle in denouncing SA fully. But, you are so correct that there will always be a part (no matter how big or small) that will belong to SA or Africa, at least. O0 :smart: :coffee: O0
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: magusta on June 22, 2010, 03:33:25 am
my 2c :

i will never be a kiwi, i was born a south african and am living in nz. if i stick around long enough for citizenship...i'll remain a south-african in new zealand. i have travelled *extensively* and am proud of my heritage. i've dated german, italian, irish, rhodesian and english girls but married an afrikaans girl, never thought i would...i'm afrikaans myself. my kids will grow-up bilingual (at least) and will learn south african history up to pre-94.

thanks to my travels i have a very feint accent, many a time have i been asked in good 'ole SA "how long have you been in the country?" or "from which part of the world are you?" guess growing up in durbs i shook the accent from an early age. i'll probably end up sending our kids to elocution lessons toning down or removing their accent completely.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Savayla on June 22, 2010, 06:23:03 am
my 2c :

imy kids will grow-up bilingual (at least) and will learn south african history up to pre-94.
Why only until then ?  That is like just learning about Germany before the war !!!   They need to know everything .
guess growing up in durbs i shook the accent from an early age. i'll probably end up sending our kids to elocution lessons toning down or removing their accent completely.

We are the same.  People here in NZ can't place us and think we are Kiwi's ,, people in SA thought we were Kiwi's , don't have broad accents. However, my youngest daughter has an american accent (so I am told ) .

But why remove your kids accents ?  That is like it is dirty.  It is not, it is part of them and their heritage. 

Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: frodo/maya on June 22, 2010, 06:23:45 am
All I can say Schalk is  :not_worthy:

Ursula
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Chan in Wellington on June 22, 2010, 07:06:13 am
I love this forum - so many different opinions.  I was born a Rhodie, lived in Cape Town, Namibia and then Canada, now in Natal.  I can't wait to experience the NZ way of life and culture!!
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: MetalFaerie on June 22, 2010, 02:03:50 pm
Really, really interesting reading folks.

You all make excellent points.

We will always be Africans at least.  Our kids will be kiwis.
As a parent, I don't want my kids to be picked on, that's why I thought adopting the accent would be better.

And I agree, a naartjie will always be so and a grenadilla too.

By the way, do you have gemsquash in NZ?  Apparently in Aus, they are called 'cricket ball marrows'

I was reading an article in the NZ herald about South Africans saying NZ women are ugly?
What do you think? (Personally, have looked and drawn a blank at where this article was 'sposed to be in SA press)
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Kwikkie on June 22, 2010, 03:57:27 pm
Quote
Daar is min so goed soos 'n boeremeisie
H'm, my Ingelse-skoonseun is baie in sy noppies met sy boeremeisie! want....
sy kan so lekker kos kook en wat is nou weer daardie ander ding?.... o ja, sy is baie slim!
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: alwyn on June 22, 2010, 06:10:59 pm
I think Prince William needs a boere meisie instead of a bun :)
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Nolan on June 22, 2010, 08:52:15 pm
I will become the best Kiwi I can, but deep inside I'll always be an African.

Metal, Kiwi chicks are hot, don't pay any attention to that article!
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: SaKiwiBoer on June 22, 2010, 09:34:22 pm
I was reading an article in the NZ herald about South Africans saying NZ women are ugly?
What do you think? (Personally, have looked and drawn a blank at where this article was 'sposed to be in SA press)

I think this problem comes in when you leave ACKL or Wellywood or those seriously big cities. The chicks on the "platteland" don't actually look as if they give a darn. They go shopping in their "slippers" and PJ's and their hair haven't seen a brush in a couple of days or they wash it and let it dry without giving it a brush. Just come out to the "sticks" and you might see the "ugly NZ women" that the Saffers talk about. Sorry but that is the way I've seen it. SAKB.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: SaKiwiBoer on June 22, 2010, 09:43:09 pm
Beauty is in  the eye of the be(er)holder

  :2funny:  :2funny:  :2funny:
No wonder I have a problem.....
I'm not much of a be(er) holder....  :2funny:  :2funny:  :2funny:
  :beer:  :party:  SAKB.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Savayla on June 22, 2010, 09:44:54 pm
Gotta disagree with you there.  We are in the country, and we find the women here much better looking and dressed, than when we were in Northshore 7 years ago.  It is the younger girls with their bottle white hair, black roots, and black make-up that I can't stand. 
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: magusta on June 22, 2010, 11:35:12 pm
and will learn south african history up to pre-94.

Why only until then ?  That is like just learning about Germany before the war !!!   They need to know everything .

i'll rephrase: they'll learn the 'unchanged or untampered with' history
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Savayla on June 23, 2010, 01:27:28 am


i'll rephrase: they'll learn the 'unchanged or untampered with' history

Aah, thanks for rephrasing.  I completely agree with you.  It has to be the unadalterated, unabridged version.  Can't stand this tampering with history.  Tell both sides, but please tell it like it is . 

My husband has a book that was written and published about Die Groot Trek concerning his great great great great grandmother.  I have kept it very safe.   They were Havemanns, were on the trek going to meet up with one of the famous leaders, they lost a cow, told everyone else to go on ahead, that they would catch up.  Later that night, heard shots, shouts, etc and thought that they had met up with Piet Retief and were celebrating.  They arrived to find that everyone in the lager had been slaughtered, except for a small black girl, a servant, who was hidden under a mattress.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: robcraignz on June 23, 2010, 10:08:10 pm
Good to know that you think of yourself in the thrid person Schalk. :2funny: :angel: SAKB, the slippers and pj's aren't reserved for the"plattelandse" girls, seen many in the same wonderful get up. waltzing around in Porirua and Petone. Petone is meant to be the Melville sort of equal?????? have to admit, the local gals is not thet prutty, ek is baie gelukkig met my stunning boere meisie van Potch af. Always been of the opinion that SA grils were by far, the best looking of all those I have seen, in the travels I have made. Pretoria girls were the pick of the bunch, yet they somehow seemed to disappear between 6 pm and 7 am (never found the solution to that - hhhmmm, what a pity). Think NZ now has potential for improvement, they are allowing more foreigners in, so cross cultural breeding might create some dem guud looking people, with really good outlooks on life??? They certainly can't go wrong with a large dose of Saffer blood in them? :angel: :angel: :angel: >:D
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Chan in Wellington on June 24, 2010, 05:57:58 am
So glad to hear that SA girls have such a good reputation  ::)
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Savayla on June 24, 2010, 06:22:36 am
They do.  What worries me is the reputation of the kiwi girls.  I read an article in the newspaper a few weeks back which stated that Kiwi girls were the "loosest " in the world, and would end up sleeping with a load of guys before settling down.  And that the guys expect it.  Waaaa !!!  I have two girls and am going to have to really go the extra mile to teach them good morals and be like their mama was .  Hubby says his club  just got bigger !!!   :2funny:
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Chan in Wellington on June 24, 2010, 06:42:37 am
So funny....the different cultures !!
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Paperdoll on June 24, 2010, 10:46:21 am
I'm also quite :o when I hear some of the girl-talk and skinder stories around me!!!  Makes me :blush: at times!! Trust me, I think the girls here can be quite a handful. 

Not sure our men are all that safe .....  :2funny:  :2funny: 
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: cyclewife on June 24, 2010, 11:14:54 am
 :heeha: oh my greatness - will have to continue instilling good morals - teenage son.... oh la la... don't need him coming home telling me i'm going to be a grandmother... i'm way too young for that...  :heeha:
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Chan in Wellington on June 24, 2010, 12:36:15 pm
I think I'll have to lock my daughter up when we get there  :2funny:
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: SaKiwiBoer on June 25, 2010, 05:02:41 am
They do.  What worries me is the reputation of the kiwi girls.  I read an article in the newspaper a few weeks back which stated that Kiwi girls were the "loosest " in the world, and would end up sleeping with a load of guys before settling down.

A while ago I heard on the radio that the average kiwi chick will have + - 40 "partners" in her life time.... eish..... where we're we in our younger days...  :2funny:  :2funny:  :2funny:
Enjoy, SAKB.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Savayla on June 25, 2010, 07:39:34 am
thanks SaKiwiBoer.  This was the article I was referring to.  40 partners !!!!  Oh my ...  :idiot2:   And daddy says  :knuppel2: :tickedoff: :uglystupid2:  :fight:   And boy says  :help: :confused:   And I say  :whistle:  wasn't me who whispered in daddy's ear .   
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: alwyn on June 25, 2010, 08:08:29 am
Well I heard about a family who could not emigrate to Aus because their teenage daughter's (15) HIV test came back positive in the medicals.

Finally the story came out that she used to hang out with friends at Tygerberg mall (not bad area) at night and that they will play spin the bottle and the girls had to go to the restrooms and have sex with whichever boy the bottle stopped on.

Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Chan in Wellington on June 25, 2010, 08:22:21 am
Yes, some of the SA schools are full of all the wrong guidance.  My son is 15 and he tells me most of the kids smoke in the toilets.  Now if I had done that at high school in my day (not THAT long ago....) I would have been expelled.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: nosyparkers on June 25, 2010, 03:17:27 pm
We are all scatterlings of Africa - each and every one.  (Johnny Clegg.)

I was born Rhodesian, came to SA in 84, going to NZ in 2011 (hopefully!!)  :)

my blood is african, doesn't matter where in the world my body is.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Savayla on June 25, 2010, 10:46:59 pm
Jeez Alwyn, I read stories like that and wonder what is happening in this world ?  I do not think that a 15 year old is mature enough to raise a baby, so she should not be having sex ?  What happened to playing spin the bottle and having a kiss ?   

All I can do is bring my child up to not fold into peer pressure, and so far she does not give a damn if someone is doing something and she does not want to.  Hopefully that continues !!!  As for my youngest.  Oops, I worry about her although she is only 8 years old.  She is too trusting .

Scary . 
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: SaKiwiBoer on June 25, 2010, 11:28:20 pm
What happened to playing spin the bottle and having a kiss ?

It's progressed. Just like everything else in life. Everything evolves, even people and habits.  :o SAKB.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Nolan on June 25, 2010, 11:36:47 pm
it is because humans get bored. If we didn't we would all still be sleeping under a tree. It makes us invent new things and push the boundaries all the time. I does also mean that we push ALL the boundaries further and further, even the ones we shouldn't - you just need to compare the level of violence shown in the movies now and 10 years ago to see it.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Savayla on June 26, 2010, 01:28:46 am
I think I want to go back to sleeping under a tree !!!  Problem is, it is too cold to do that here  :2funny:
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: alwyn on June 26, 2010, 09:07:57 am
I think in this new age there is just too much outside pressure on kids and at the same time their resolve is much weaker than ours were at the same time.

The new generation also has to have instant satisfaction and can't keep themselves busy.  The latter mostly because most ways of keeping yourself busy these days doesn't involve getting of your backside so they become lazy (and selfish).
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Chan in Wellington on July 20, 2010, 11:13:05 am
Should I stay or Should I go??????

Been so ampted to get our process going, now that it is, just got off the phone with a friend who thinks we are crazy to be going, SA has so much to offer, the weather, the sport, the 'good life' etc.  It's days like today that I wonder if we are doing the right thing!!!!!!
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: BeninCPT on July 20, 2010, 11:33:24 am
Don't worry Chantelle.
I feel like that every time I see how much my mom and dad enjoys playing with my baby girl.
But leave I will leave
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: frodo/maya on July 20, 2010, 11:53:14 am
Don't worry  :1hug: that is all part of the process. We are leaving in a months time (today   :sweat:) and we are wondering if we are doing the right thing every single day.

The problem is that you will never know if it is the right thing until you have tried it, you will always wonder.  ;)
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Chan in Wellington on July 20, 2010, 12:01:53 pm
I just hope it is the right thing, when people close to you start saying that SA has a bright future (see latest speech by Clem Sunter) and that we are running away from problems in SA to have more in NZ....I feel sick, but other days I can't wait to leave!  :confused:  :confused:  :confused:
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: frodo/maya on July 20, 2010, 12:27:12 pm
At this stage I think that a lot of people are saying that Sa has a bright future- well good on them SA need these positive people and I respect their opinions but................. for us, SA is taking our inner peace away (hope this makes sense), IMy husband and I cannot function on maybe's / predictions 'cause this could have a huge impact on our future. We can also not function in grey areas anymore and in SA there are loads of grey areas, from what I understand is that in NZ, something is either white or black- there are no grey areas. Something is either right or wrong, in SA you are not 100% sure as to what the future holds and unfortunately I cannot function like that anymore.

Hope this makes sense, I know how you feel, I was there a few months ago.  :gl2: welcome to the emotional part of your journey Chan  :1hug:
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Chan in Wellington on July 20, 2010, 12:32:04 pm
Thank you...that's what I need to hear! O0
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Savayla on July 20, 2010, 08:54:18 pm
I just hope it is the right thing, when people close to you start saying that SA has a bright future (see latest speech by Clem Sunter)

Who is the bright future for ?  Will it change the angry, poverty stricken people who are the ones out to steal, rape and harm ?  I don't think so.  Maybe more money will pour it, but how are you going to change an entire mindset of people?  Those that are angry, both black and white, those that are scared , both black and white, those that don't care ?   Clem Sunter has written on the downfall of our nation before.  That is his job and his personal opinions tend to waver .

I left Zimbabwe, now South Africa, and I am completely Africa-ed out !!

I don't see any brightness, apart from higher watt security lights being installed . :2funny:
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: SaKiwiBoer on July 20, 2010, 09:00:21 pm
I left Zimbabwe, now South Africa, and I am completely Africa-ed out !!

I don't see any brightness, apart from higher watt security lights being installed . :2funny:

 :2funny:  :2funny:  :2funny:
Well with the higher watt security lights being installed they WILL have a BRIGHTER FUTURE ...  :2funny:  :2funny:  :2funny:

Cheers, SAKB.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Nolan on July 20, 2010, 09:42:39 pm
SA has so much to offer, the weather, the sport, the 'good life' etc.  It's days like today that I wonder if we are doing the right thing!!!!!!

SA has so much to offer if you are looking for instability, job, insecurity, danger to person, degrading infrastructure, dropping education standard. I am not looking for that, I am looking for the ability to sleep peacefully at night, an internationally recognised education for my kids and the ability to compete in the business arena on an equal footing and not based on the colour of my skin or from being excluded because of perceived "previous advantages" that were supposedly afforded to me in days gone by.

The weather in NZ (compared to Auckland where I live) is just as good as in SA - A little cooler in summer - thank goodness, much warmer in winter - thank goodness and a bit more rainy - less hayfever, cleaner air and better sleeps at night listening to the rain.

Sport - is universaly broadcast so you can watch exactly the same sport here, but yes I'll give her that one. To see most good international sport, you either need to wake up very early in the morning or catch the replay.

The good life - I really can't see what is so good about being scared to climb in your car wondering if somebody is going to write you off because he didn't want to stop at the traffic light or kill you for your car. I can't see what is so good about not being able to allow the kids to school in case they get stolen, raped or killed. I don't know what is so good about not being able to drive into your own property without the fear of some sick scum waiting in the bushes or following you so he can kill you and take your car. I don't know what is so good about having to lock a security door on your front door and live with burglar bars on your windows to keep out the stealing, raping hoardes. I don't know what is so good about not being able to have a braai in your own back yard without the constant fear of a group a scum jumping over the wall to rape and plunder you. I don't know what is so good about not being able to get a job that you deserve because you are not black enough. I don't know what is so good about not being able to tender on government contracts because you are not black. I don't know what is so good about being forced to employ employees because they are black instead of capable or best for the position regardless of colour. I don't know what is so good about not being able to go to university because the "quota" of whites allowed is full. I don't know what is so good about not being able to compete at sport because of the colour of your skin. I better stop now because I am busy getting upset with your friend...

The irony is if I had written this 20 years ago, you would have thought I was a black man and writing from an apartheid South Africa and published it in the London Times, New York Times, New Zealand Herald, etc., but now it being written by white, "coloured", "Indian", Chinese, etc men from current day apartheid South Africa and nobody gives a :censored: or bats an eyelid.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Chan in Wellington on July 21, 2010, 06:51:15 am
@ Nolan - thank you, thank you!  Perfect for me to read this morning as I get to work!  I am going to quote your 'article' and send to my friend.  My OH said last night that perhaps people that know they are not able to go to NZ are jealous and try to make us stay behind with the rest of them  >:D - who knows, but you are right with everything you said.  The company I work for has just appointed someone of 'colour' into a position that I have wanted and worked towards for 2 years (been with this company for 6).  Now he can't do the job and is forever in my office asking me for help.  Well NO MORE!!!  My son, who wants to go to Varsity in 3 years time, is horrified that I would even think of sending him anywhere locally.  So yes, you are 100% correct with everything you say.  Today will be a better day for me. O0
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Centurionite on July 21, 2010, 10:14:37 am
Well said Nolan, and I do agree with everything you said - and that is why we came to NZ also.

Unfortunately, there is more than one reason why we have not settled/been happy here - but we do not regret our decision to leave SA.

I think people need to ask themselves if they want to get out of SA before being raped or murdered - and if the answer is Yes, then leave.

If you do not settle in NZ, like quite a few people we know - then either you can be stupid enough to go back to SA or explore the option of going to other countries.

At least NZ, will buy you some 'life time' to live your life - and then make a more informed decision - and not one out of fear.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: frodo/maya on July 21, 2010, 11:34:50 am
Excellent Nolan!  :clap:
 O0
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Nolan on July 21, 2010, 12:35:55 pm
agreed Centurionite O0
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: SaKiwiBoer on July 21, 2010, 06:16:08 pm
The company I work for has just appointed someone of 'colour' into a position that I have wanted and worked towards for 2 years (been with this company for 6).  Now he can't do the job and is forever in my office asking me for help.  Well NO MORE!!! 

CiD - Your reply to this "person" should be... "Sorry, I don't know. That is NOT my job and I don't know what is going on there, plus I don't get the money for it so I wouldn't know, Sorry. Ask somebody else..."

@Nolan & Centurionite - You guys are right. All of us should keep our options open. If it's NZ, then "Sweet Ass", if it's not, then let the games begin, or should I say, carry on...  :2funny:
Cheers, SAKB.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Adele2310 on July 21, 2010, 06:53:07 pm
So I am very new to the these forums this is only my second post:)  but I would like to comment.  I have been living in the USA for the last 13 years and have been back to visit SA periodically the most recent time being May of last year.  Since I have been in the USA I have somewhat 'americanized' the way I speak not because I am losing who I am but rather because its just easier to be understood.  Whenever I make new american friends I always make a point about talking about the differences in english between America and SA.  The one that always gets them rolling is what we call a hooter in SA is actually a woman's breast here!

So this is how I see the whole thing.  I adapted and embraced the American culture while I was here and truly tried to become a contributing member of their society but I kept most of the SA accent even though Mom says I sound like a Yankee.  I think that the Americans could tell that I respected their way of being and were eager to learn the differences.

Concerning my move to NZ I plan on learning the local terminology and using it.  I will be supporting the All Black Rugby team and this country will be my new home.  At every opportunity I will laugh and joke with the Kiwi's and tell them about how things were different in SA but most importantly i will respect there way of life because they are giving me opportunities and a home which I would never have had back in SA.

Thank you for your post Nolan!
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: SaKiwiBoer on July 21, 2010, 07:27:38 pm
 :clap:   O0   ;)  Excellent !!!
Enjoy your journey, SAKB
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Nolan on July 21, 2010, 08:54:35 pm
and that is why you have and will immigrate successfully again Adele O0
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Mongrel Mobster on July 21, 2010, 09:25:14 pm
Well said Nolan, no way I could have said it better!
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: robcraignz on July 21, 2010, 11:32:23 pm
Yep, Nolan, it is your insights that have you as "Supreme being" here. As you have seen it all, and your comments are from personal experience (comments I agree with completely), well said. O0 O0 O0
Adele, your attitude is good and correct, and as per Nolan, it is for that attitude, that will ensure your successful intergration into Kiwi life - good luck.  :gl2:
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: ryanrich on August 02, 2010, 06:49:40 pm
I just hope it is the right thing, when people close to you start saying that SA has a bright future (see latest speech by Clem Sunter) and that we are running away from problems in SA to have more in NZ....I feel sick, but other days I can't wait to leave!  :confused:  :confused:  :confused:

I sincerely HOPE that SA has a bright future, but what are these people basing that on? In my experience it's usually people that live a privileged life in SA and take advantage of the many private services that are still functioning well that have this mindset. They often look at things like the World Cup and the great spirit that it brought to the country and become oblivious to the true state of the country and government. A trip to a government hospital and other government institutions will tell a different story. One of corruption and a completely collapsing infrastructure. When you look at the bigger picture and the fact that there are so few tax payers in SA supporting a majority of the population, it's hard to see this bright future anytime soon I'm afraid.

Things could go either way in SA, but when I look at the violence and hatred in the crimes being commited, inequality, ever dropping standards and continuing racism from so many leaders and politicians, I ask myself is it worth the risk of staying if you have the opportunity to leave for a much brighter and more stable future. I don't think it is. SA will always be there, and if push comes to shove you can always return one day, but once you experience real freedom and a country that truly takes care of it's citizens and doesn't just preach about it, I doubt you will want to... I hear every day about another family attacked on their smallholding or another farmer that has been violently murdered, yet most people nowadays brush it aside saying I'm being negative and it's the MEDIA'S fault for distorting the truth because all countries have such crime, the media just doesn't report on it as much, and then carry on saying what a bright future SA has and how the world cup has brought such a great "gees" to the country. Are you kidding me?! I just can't accept that. Until the government and people in general start accepting that SA is in a very bad place, I just dunno... I tried for many years to "make a difference" as they say, but it was like peeing into the wind, if you'll excuse my French. :D

It actually makes me extremely sad that some peoples family members choose to not speak to them anymore and say what a mistake they're making when they choose to emigrate. It's things like that, that can put seeds of doubt in your mind, but remember what your initial reasoning was for wanting to emigrate, and know that you're making the right decision. Many people go through this, but on this forum you'll always find like minded people who will understand where you're coming from and will help you with any feelings of doubt.
 
:gl2:
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Nolan on August 02, 2010, 08:30:31 pm
O0
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: SaKiwiBoer on August 02, 2010, 08:47:58 pm
  ;)   O0
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: frodo/maya on August 03, 2010, 06:23:04 am
 :clap: :clap: :twothumbs:
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Chan in Wellington on August 03, 2010, 06:45:53 am
Thanks ryanrich, great input for us  ;D
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Snoozy on August 03, 2010, 09:01:16 am
Hey Ryanrich

Thanks for the post, but as far as I recall, you went back to SA from NZ? Are you planning to leave again, or what do you base your staying on in SA?

Would just be very interested to know...
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: ryanrich on August 03, 2010, 10:10:30 am
Came back temporarily based on some personal and family issues. My mindset and feelings never changed... :)

To be honest I'm really happy with the whole experience because I learnt SO much from it, and discovered that I was naive about many things as well. Live and learn I say... ;)

I still do like to see the positives in SA, because there are positives as well, I mean it's not all doom and gloom in absolutely everything, but as I grow I become more and more aware of the realities and ever more worried about the future.

Will officially be back in NZ next month. :yippee:
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: frodo/maya on August 03, 2010, 11:49:59 am
See you way down under next month Ryanrich  :clap:
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: ryanrich on August 03, 2010, 12:30:35 pm
See you way down under next month Ryanrich  :clap:

Indeed! :D

Less than 3 weeks to your departure, must be getting nervous/excited now! Hope the trip goes well!
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Nolan on August 03, 2010, 08:45:36 pm
:clap: glad you coming back mate O0
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: ryanrich on August 04, 2010, 06:57:30 am
Thanks much, can't wait! :)
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: juby on August 07, 2010, 05:20:43 pm
I'm loving the variety of opinions here, thanks for all the thought provoking stories everyone.

I don't believe there is any rule book in terms of how you should or shouldn't react to these journeys, but I'm pretty confident that if you do it with a smile on your face and you won't go far wrong  O0

I'm an English South African living in London, on my way to New Zealand. In the last 3 years I've adapted to calling robots, traffic lights (to avoid confusion  ;D), say Ja to my Mom but No Worries to my colleagues. Just roll it all together and have fun with it!

What's with the necessity to label things anyway? Fun to me is boring to you - neither is right or wrong.

Imagine how dull and uneventful life would be if we shared identical perspectives, opinions and attitudes.

Bring on the diversity I say!!

keeping it positive
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: frodo/maya on August 09, 2010, 06:40:04 pm
Thanks Ryan, goodluck to you as well! :gl2:
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Mosescapetown on September 06, 2011, 07:20:57 pm
now that was allot of reading in one thread...  :o 8)

I am very impressed with the different opinions given as well as recommended guidelines and approaches to different situations.For a newbie to the "move bizz" it was a real eye opener. :o I also really loved the comparisons between old and new immigrants. The "old" folks really had a tough time adjusting and paving the way so to speak.

To agree with some of the other posters in the thread I was surprised that Kiwis see us (SAers) as rude and unwilling to integrate. We are not like that even still today in SA. But the explanation given that they have different social behavior and mannerisms to us does clarify or explain their view of us. :blush:

As for the reasons immigrants left in the old days opposed to why they leaving today I can add the following. Crime and economic stability is worse than ever in SA history with no real vision for improvement in future. Even worse government has no real plans to improve these. Only empty promises and super high corruption levels. guess you also now know some of my reasons behind my decision to move. I love SA. But I am a family man with responsibilities towards my family. Providing them security and stability is important for the future. :smart:

Thanx for a most informative and thought provoking thread. This is a must read for all new migrants and even just those considering such a step. O0

Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: maxnmike on December 01, 2012, 11:30:44 pm
Having immigrated to NZ in 1984, had two children here and then returned to SA in 1990 then immigrating back in 2009 I can say with all sincerity that there is most definitely a HUGE change is NZers attitudes towards SAans.
When I lived here the first time I lived in Taupo, the timber industry ruled and life was good. People were happy with grandmas hand me down couch and we had the choice of 3 supermarkets and a few "chain clothing stores". Farmers still sold everthing, including swan dries and gumboots  :). Apart from a local doctor, we were the only South Africans in Taupo. The locals didnt care that we were from SA, they loved us, they welcomed us with open arms. We had a few laughs along the way because we didnt understand their terminology - eg, we were invited to newly made friends for supper. We arrived at 7h30, they looked confused and were running around madly trying to bath and feed kiddies to get them into bed before we arrived. Yup, we had arrived way to early, supper is the snack and toot you have between dinner and going to bed; duh
We left with heavy hearts, but having two children with no family around was incredibly difficult. Our marriage was on the rocks, I was a very young mother (1st child at 24) and yup, I needed my mum. Our friends were incredibly saddened saying that they were our family and we didnt need to go back.
Jump ahead almost 20 years and now back in NZ. We initially thought (incorrectly so) that Auckland would be the place that would be best suited to my husband for employment (yes, we came over cowboy style). We didnt have any friends of our own that had made the move but had been given contact details of "friends of friends". They were kind and tried to reassure us that employment would come and we needed to be patient etc etc. We decided after 3 months that all the jobs in my husbands field were in fact in Wellington, so we packed up and moved south. Let me add here that we LOVE Wellington or more accurately Upper Hutt (although my husband works in Wellington and commutes by train) and wouldnt want to live anywhere else. This is an account of OUR personal experiences with ex-South Africans both here and in Auckland. They form clicks and stick together like the proverbial. They have their weekly get-togethers to have a braai. The men stand around the braai while the ladies are in the kitchen making the salads, gossiping and looking after the kids. They presume that if you are at the braai you are either Afrikaans or can speak it. Their conversation is mainly along the lines of "what I hate about this place is this, that and the next thing" then its "What I need/want from SA is this that and the next thing" and there are no qualms about dropping the "K-word" into the conversation either. You hear Afrikaners standing in queues in supermarkets or just standing around chatting in general and complaining about kiwis. They laugh at kiwi accents and ridicule them. They complain bitterly when they see a black person and ask what the hell they are doing in NZ, that they should go back to bloody Africa etc. I am yet to hear any of them say "what I love about NZ is...." and "what my children love, can do, are able to do is...." I am sure that this attitude is no different to any other migrant community eg Chinese, Brits, Americans etc. but I havent seen or heard them be openly hostile about NZ/kiwis (perhaps because I dont speak/understand Mandarine  ;D )
What continues to blow my mind is - if you hate NZ that much and miss SA so darn much, go back. There are some, like us, who want to be here and love it. We have been told by our Kiwi friends that we are more Kiwi than a lot of New Zealanders and proudly so. The other is the way they speak so badly of other immigrants like they have more rights than everyone else to be here. That their qualifications are more worthy and that their children are the only ones that deserve a safe and happy future. The "superior race" attitude doesnt cut it here. We are to NZ as much an immigrant as a Chinese, Indian, Somalian or Brit. We as South Africans are not (as we have heard brandied around so often) more sought after than any other immigrant. We are here because we have a skill that is needed, no other reason. Why should you get a management position if you havent proved yourself? Sure you have a qualification and experience but its just a piece of paper. Prove your worth and work your way up.
We of course know South Africans who live here, we however do not socialise with them. We do not seek them out at schools, functions and the like. We dont have braais, we have BBQ's. We dont sms, we text. We dont send emails, we flick them. We love and embrace anything and everything that is NZ, we are proud of NZ achievements and get caught up in the hype, ie The Hobbit, the Silver Ferns, the All Blacks. The weather is what it is and we muck in. We get upset by things that upset Kiwis ie family violence, dead babies, binge drinking amongst the youth, the price of lamb, tagging, etc etc We have bought a camper van and we travel the country at every opportunity we get. We are living the kiwi dream, the one we moved here for. We are not living a South African dream in NZ.
Bottom line, South Africans are NOT special in any way shape or form. We are here by choice. We are not living in a "little SA", we are in NZ. "When in NZ do like NZ".
I will probably get a lot of flack from this, please know that these are my personal experiences and the experiences of some of our kiwi and non-SA friends.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: ronaldd on December 02, 2012, 05:33:27 am
When I got told by my wife to go see this post,  I was expecting something much worse.  It is not special in ANY way. It is  just another post about a South African complaining about new South Africans.  About 1 South African not liking another demographic group.   Just like a lot of South Africans who complain,  you can consider yourself welcome in that club.  As i have said before , to many people,  in South Africa we would not easily have had people from the Freestate,  Johannesburg , Durban and Cape Town sit around the same camp fire. The only thing which many of us have in common is a country of birth.  English and Afrikaans people struggled to get along since the 1800s. The English led party would not even let the Maoris off a boat back in 1940/1. http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/8024104/Final-call-for-Maori-Battalion (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/8024104/Final-call-for-Maori-Battalion)  and the ANC was founded in 1912,  yet "everything started" in 1946 by those Afrikaans racists... TUI ad ,  YEAH RIGHT.

So....  When I hear about superiority , then its typical South African,  and absolutely nothing new. 

Chinese people are treated badly in NZ by Kiwis.   If you are in Auckland you get told quickly that if there was an accident, 9/10 times its an Asian.  Lack of understanding of ethnic groupings includes a whole bunch of countries as Asian but to generalise it as and Asian is easier, because more than 1/5 th of the world is Asian. Is a Filipino also Asian?

You knew you were going to get "flak", saying it in your post should not stop people from expressing their view.. We should not use the K word..  It's not that South Africans complain and discriminate more than others.  You are getting a response purely because you say South Africans are not special or no more than Kiwis,  yet its acceptable for a New Zealanders to make racist comments about Maori on every occasion but a South African should not (and would not).  Many of us(ex-pats) are more accepted by Maori folks than Kiwi folks,  once they realise that not all of us are the same.   I had a beer and biltong dringink session with some Maori mates, and i can tell you , they are worthy of a good drinking session,  they have good stamina.

The wife and I were talking about it today.  She arranged a specialist doctor's appointment for the son of a Kiwi friend. She was told over the phone that it was $270 for the appointment.   When the appointment was finished the doctor charged the kiwi $90.  The friend mentioned its most likely because she(my wife) is a foreigner.  So... should be bother verifying it or just accept it?  We just shrugged it off.  How many other places were we charged 3 times?  My kid's after school activities we are charged through our necks,  other kids go for free.

We love it here in NZ.  We support our teams. We support our histories.  If we wanted to go back,  we would.  If we want to complain about things, we will.  We live in a free country where we have every right to complain.  If you don't like us having freedoms like that,  you should go back to South Africa.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: maxnmike on December 03, 2012, 10:12:50 pm
Given that my home language is English, ie I didnt have to pass an IELTS test for residency, I thought it would be wise however to double check the meaning of "forum" and yes, I was correct - "an opportunity for an exchange of views where anyone can participate". I realise too of course that I am by no means a major contributor to this forum (some over 1000) but having an understanding of the meaning of a forum, I do know that I am entitled to MY PERSONAL views!
I do not often allow myself to be baited, but wish to point out that my contribution to this particular feed was based on the initial piece written by Nolan, regarding Kiwis perception of South Africans, more acurately this part in particular:


"We need to realise these differences.
We need to work on our emotional baggage that we are lugging around so that we can get rid of it before we destroy our image entirely.
We need work hard to turn around this growing perception of us.
We need to realise that when we arrive here we are seen as just another immigrant from a foreign country, so we need to work harder than the next guy to get back to where we were in SA.
We need to be greatful every day that the Kiwis have given us the opportunity to come here and live in peace and safety."


I have re-read what I wrote and never once did I make it personal, it was a general perception.  When I said I expected some "flak" I meant it in a general sense, not a personal one. Living on this site and constantly posting, does not give you the right to supremacy of the forum and the only one with a say. To take a dig at me personally was un-called for. I do however note that in the past you were unable to sit around a campfire with people from the same provinces within your own country, no wonder then, that you continue to segregate the people within in your new adopted country, Maoris and Kiwis; I thought they were just all New Zealanders?! As the saying goes, "if the cap fits wear it"!

Perhaps next time your wife might consider responding herself rather than calling you to take a look - just a thought...
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Ostrich on December 04, 2012, 04:02:56 am
It takes time for people to adjust during immigration. It's not just South Africans, and it doesn't only occur in NZ. Assimilation is a well documented process, and one which can take generations in some cases. There's nothing wrong with this, and it doesn't make people 'bad' immigrants.  This is one of the reasons that countries try to put a quota on immigration from any one country at a given time (to maintain the speed of assimilation).

The NZ Department of Labour has published plenty of data on retention rates.  According to them, South Africans have one of the highest rates of retention in NZ. This seems like a positive thing to me, and implies a greater 'pull' to assimilate. Here's some of the research I'm referring to, if anyone is interested (see figure 2.3 in the full doc) : http://dol.govt.nz/publications/research/migrants-in-nz-retention-onward-migration-1998-2011

It's totally normal -- universal, actually -- to have some adjustment stress. It's called "acculturative stress" in psychology. And, it's a part of assimilation.  :) It's also normal to miss your home country, want familiar items from your home country around (including people). I'm speaking from experience, having taught English to new immigrants in America, and having immigrated twice myself. I think most people who have immigrated from any nation can relate, if you ask.

As immigrants, it's great if we aim to assimilate and become Kiwis. But, ultimately, you will never erase where you came from, and the process might only be complete in the second or even third generation.  But, if people are happy living in NZ, and the kids are soaking up local culture, it will happen. As they say, she'll come right! O0
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: vulpes on December 04, 2012, 06:11:12 am
i think, in reading posts it is always helpful to remember that your own experience does not invalidate someone elses.

and like ostritch says, immigration and assimilation is a process. one that you continue to go through. new zealand will be for us, our 8th country as we are professional expats (by this I mean, our work moves us around the world). so we know how to move. not so much how to stay put!

so for us, this move is going to be really different. but understanding that it is going to be a process that doesnt finish with getting the visa in the passport, getting a job and house, is important.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: 2GatJakkals on December 04, 2012, 09:41:53 am
Actually, I find value in both Maxnmike's and Ronaldd's posts.  Each present one of the pieces needed to build this complicated immigration-puzzle.

Maxnmike helps me remember that my adjustment to my new country will be easier if I make the effort to see things the way my new countrymen do.  Ronaldd reminds me that I do not need to be a saint.  Where I come from everybody has preferences, where I am now everybody still does, and I am no different.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: ronaldd on December 04, 2012, 09:42:46 am
Max, let me first get this out right from the start.  My wife does respond to post like this,  she is the "helpful one" who give information rather than get involved in "nonsense" or "feely touchy" stuff.  She is English too,  I am Afrikaans but not exactly 100% Afrikaans(Dad is dutch).  My dad was an immigrant 60 years ago, just like I am now an immigrant, if he stayed on the boat longer I would have been either Canadian , Australian or New Zealander.  She(wife) actually told me not to comment and just let it go.  Knowing me,here initial actions were not exactly going to facilitate it.  Showing me and then not participating in the discussion when it is something I feel strongly about,  is as likely as wearing pyjamas on one's honeymoon.  So,  let me run down why my response was directed to specific things you said.

Given that my home language is English, ie I didn't have to pass an IELTS test for residency, I thought it would be wise however to double check the meaning of "forum" and yes, I was correct - "an opportunity for an exchange of views where anyone can participate".
I made an assumption you were English.  So My response about English and Afrikaans people not getting along was an assumption at the time.  I am ashamed I based a response on an assumption but feel happy that my hunch was right and my explanation followed on that Afrikaans people did not start the problem , they were the last one there to be blamed for it.  I could delve into historical bits to prove a point but decided just to copy an paste an article from the previous day into the post.  I say again,  using the K word is not right, but not all people are the same, and not all Afrikaans people are the same, and not even those who think they are the same, are the same. Being different is not a flaw, its a strength. Having a different point of view is also not an argument in the sense of fighting but rather an argument in terms of a debate.


I realise too of course that I am by no means a major contributor to this forum (some over 1000) but having an understanding of the meaning of a forum, I do know that I am entitled to MY PERSONAL views!
Absolutely,  actually,  many here know me personally.  I am not such a big [expletive] than I actually come accross in my posts (some might say I am  more :) ) I express my personal views here often too.  My comments were directed to you purely because I felt directly affected by the statements.  I do not disagree about Afrikaans people mentioning things they do not like,  but I do object to it being an exclusively Afrikaner trait.  I believe if someone called the English South Africans a bunch of whiny b...rds who watch cricket and never support the local teams,  those who are man enough might have spoken up and slapped me with their glove and challenged me to a dual at dawn.  Personal views is what it is all about.   As I mentioned, If I WAS to say something like that about English people.. i would have gotten an argument from those pale skinned sissies   >:D  *JOKE*


Living on this site and constantly posting, does not give you the right to supremacy of the forum and the only one with a say. To take a dig at me personally was un-called for.
Firstly,  I do not "live on this site".  Many of us go on about once a week, maybe less after a few years. Not that my visit frequency is important.    As for supremacy,  I am not.  There is no special privileges or access . As a matter of fact,  I suspect more people dislike me for being direct or not mincing words or having zero diplomacy.  My views on not living in a dream is seen often. Yanking people's rose tinted glasses off and making people prepare for real life and not lalla land can be seen often.  So if this was a popularity contest,  you win.  I concede that you are superior on this forum.  This forum is for new people like yourself and those who are "assimilating".  I feel I am as assimilated as i will ever get.  Rather happy just the way i am now actually :)

I do however note that in the past you were unable to sit around a campfire with people from the same provinces within your own country, no wonder then, that you continue to segregate the people within in your new adopted country, Maoris and Kiwis;
Maori I know call themselves Maori,  and Pakeha don't call themselves pakeha,   they call themselves kiwi or new zealanders,  Maori call white folks Pakeha, and white folks don't call themselves Pakeha. There is even a Maori flag,  which you might have seen. Where is the Pakeha flag,  that's the Kiwi flag?.  And if you aren't Maori or Kiwi, you are called what ever nationality you are .  You are blaming ME for being personal?  Yet I feel I am more "with it", but obviously I am not objective about it (by definition). 

It is maybe important to make mention of this again.  I am not an English first language person.  I might not have the right word for things but blaming me for dogberryism or malapropism might be a bit of a stretch.(no, didn't Google "big words to impress people on the Internet") .   So if I call a person a Maori or a Kiwi,  it is not intentionally against other opinions, it is purely to differentiate as one would agree ,  in New Zealand , amongst New Zealanders, they make the distinction.

Back to the point,  the "camp fire" comment was not a literal "camp fire",  I was speaking metaphorical(I think you need a permit for a camp fire actually). I was trying to explain that even in South Africa , each province has a sub culture. There is no "one culture" for all South Africans(contrary to what New Zealanders believe). Even if you just take 1 racial grouping, there is not "one culture".  Many of us only share a country of birth and nothing else. Obviously if we were in south africa we would be with people from our community who were have a lot in common with, but here they weren't from our SA neighbourhood.  We often do not have the same values/beliefs.  Actually, to find someone who come from the same area is rather rare. Unless your name is Barry and you meet your granny's brother in The Warehouse :) .  If you had a look at our motley crew of friends it would be quite interesting.  They are awesome people.  Yet,  geographically we all came from different areas and have very little in common except a good sense of humour to laugh at ourselves.

Making a comment about a black person in NZ might seem racist, but depending on your reason for leaving SA,  you might feel that Black people are better off in South Africa after apartheid ended and white people are not better off. I am not justifying people's racist comments of course.  Not all black people are from South Africa. You must however see the possible reason for such a statement . Regardless,  many of our friends are not white South Africans (though Afrikaans usually).  However  we still call them South Africans even after all these years.  Let's be honest please,  they have as much chance of being called "New Zealanders" as white Afrikaans South Africans have . Even as citizens we will still be referred to as "South Africans".  Like one of our friends said, they were confused with a Chinese person.. HUH I say.

I thought they were just all New Zealanders?! As the saying goes, "if the cap fits wear it"!
Yup,  if it has a little propeller on and comes in yellow and blue,  yes i will wear it, but only if you wear yours too.

So.. In closing.  If you feel yourself unfairly targeted please raise it with Nolan or any moderator and have him kick my bum.  If I hurt your feelings,  I am sorry for hurting your feelings. I cannot however just sit by and read how Afrikaans people are the only ones complaining. That generalisation is UNFAIR.  I also accept that it's your personal views and your personal right to make generalisations, but it will be with feedback.  I would counter and say there are English people who do the same, and call them by name here on this forum but fail to see what benefit it would have really.  The only reason they don't gossip in a queue  at supermarkets is that they would do it in English, but they definitely do it in the privacy of other South Africans .  I probably see you guys at the same train station I go to every day.  You can actually not miss me,  the fat guy with the All-blacks top(if it is going to rain) on the 8:30 ish train and a backpack.  I do not hide behind anonymity or anything. If you want to have coffee and discuss your experiences/opinions,  feel free to send me a private message and we can go have a coffee and mend some bridges.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Siouxzee on December 04, 2012, 10:42:58 am
I have chatted to a few of my kiwi friends about some of these posts on the forum and how there is this perception/reality that Kiwi's are not fans of South Africans. In fact some of the Kiwi people I have even worked have said the Saffa's they have met have not been good adverts, one went as far as to say to me I should give some South Africans lessons  :2funny:
I am relatively new to NZ just been here 18mths, I am an english speaking South African and to be honest barely understand Afrikaans, even though my grandfather was Afrikaans etc
@maxnmike I had a slight aversion to what you said as even though it was an opinion or personal experience it gave the impression that you and your Kiwi friends were blanketing expats and saying we don't try to fit in.
As someone who has for 30yrs called it a braai, called them robots and takkies, called them sms's since they came into being and also said I will send an email. It takes alot more than 5mins to change how you speak. It has nothing to do with not wanting or trying to fit in. It is simply years of conditioning and will take years to change which is completely normal. As much as I embrace kiwi culture I am who I am. I am not going to try and pretend to be someone I am not.
Even when I become a citizen (and I to have a child who as per his birth certificate is NZ by birth, I support the All Blacks, love Pavlova) I will still also be a South African and proud of it. In fact a Kiwi friend and I talk about this and she says she completely fails to understand people who emigrate and try to forget what nationality they were originally.
There are things I will always miss in SA (Woolies just happens to be one of them) that does not make me Love NZ any less or mean I don't want to be here. There are things about NZ that if I were to leave I would definitely miss. That does not make me a bad expat, it just means I am a realist who acknowledges there will be pros and cons to every country.
Also to be honest why cant we complain if we are not happy with a law, the ruling party etc. I pay my taxes and contribute. I see this as my home and therefore feel I have right to voice my opinion over something I am not happy with.
I also came with the intention of not creating a mini SA, wanting to integrate only with Kiwi's. The truth is it is not easy and other South Africans are the ones who welcomed us and invited us into their lives and homes first. Yes I have made Kiwi friends now but it did take a lot longer they dont welcome you as quickly. Was chatting to a different Kiwi friend and she said to me as I thought it was because I was South African. She said no that is just Kiwi's she had the same thing moving from Auckland to Wellington. In fact even another Kiwi friend said to me she had a friend who met her partner in London. He was South African. They moved back to SA. Subsequently she has come back to NZ. What she said to her group of friends when she got back was she found South Africans so welcoming and inviting and that his friends in SA made far more of effort to involve and include her, than her friends and Kiwis in general would have done for him if they had come to live here.
At the end of the day it takes time to settle in. But be who you are. Yes don't go in and be openly hostile and put everything down and if you are miserable and hate it then question why you are here. But if you complain about the fact that you miss Woolies, cappucinos with cream, hate cabinet food in coffee shops, think the drivers are the worst (maybe that is just because there are so many Saffa's  :2funny:), the TV adverts are abysmal, sometimes the justice system does not seem to work, things are a little to PC. I think consider yourself normal, you are not bad expat just a real one. I am always grateful that is all I have to complain about :)
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: maxnmike on December 06, 2012, 04:17:22 am
Thanks Rockhopper, you actually got what I was (trying to say) saying. Sometimes no amount of emoticons or punctuation can put across EXACTLY what you mean. Yes, I meant *&@holes lol. But then, your written English is beautiful and I am in awe  :) (And no, I am not taking a dig or being sarcastic !)
Ronaldd - I actually think that you and I could (perhaps) enjoy a coffee, or a good ol' Kiwi flat white  together, without pouring it over each other. Emotions can run high when dignity and culture are the talking point. I didnt mean to demean all Afrikaners, just as not all Poms are wingers LOL.

Its been an interesting discussion all round.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: ronaldd on December 06, 2012, 08:45:09 am
Schalk,  in my kop klink my gedagtes soos wat jy ge skryf het.  Jy het presies gese^ wat ek al lank probeer se^ maar dit word altyd verloor tussen hoe dit in my kop klink en hoe dit gelees word.

Max.  We will make a coffee session forsure.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Savayla on December 07, 2012, 11:09:20 pm
Wow, haven't been on in a few days and this was riveting stuff.  I started by reading Maxnmikes post and agreeing with alot of what she said, and disagreeing with some of what she said.  Then I read Ronaldd's and also started shaking my head in agreement, and so it went with all the posts. 

To my mind, every single person who immigrates has done it for a different reason, from a different background, in a different way, some with money, some without, some have breezed in here effortlessly, and some have really struggled.  And how we then assimilate is completely different too.  We have all landed in different areas of NZ, and this too makes a huge difference.  We have all made friends with different types of people in NZ.  We are all on our own journeys .

We assimilated very easily, made friends very easily, and have found it easy to fit in and start our new life.  Our immigration was stressful and we still have a lot of other stresses in our life.  We too have not sought out South Africans but do know a few lovely people here, but still call a braai a braai, but if it is done on gas we call it a BBQ, let us not pretend they are one and the same  :)   .  My Kiwi friend fliks me an email, I send an email.  We don't fight about it.  My kids wear takkies, their kids wear sneakers or something like that.  We still have sweets, they eat lollies, although I find myself saying that darn word often !!   :P  We eat supper, they have tea.  They accept us for who we are, as do we.  This is our new country, and we love it, but we still have a good go at Mr. Key.

Yet when others battle to assimilate, and cling to their backgrounds and culture, I don't condemn them.  I feel sorry for them.  It is the same with the Chinese or Indians, who all seem to stick together.  It helps you to assimilate, even though it may take you much longer.  It helps to have someone that understands your culture, when you are trying to fit in with a new one.

We too went to a South African braai where all the Saffers of this area were invited.  We were a bit worried if we would actually fit in.  How funny is that ?  It turned out to be such a lovely group of people, and not once did anyone mention anything disparaging about South Africa (this would have been me a few years ago when I was angry ).  In fact, we had my daughters friend with us, and her Kiwi dad came to pick her up and ended up staying .  And what fun we had ripping the Kiwi's off,  with him enjoying it all.  It was all tongue in cheek . 

I guess what I am trying to say, is that we are all different and so it should be.  Otherwise the world would be a boring place.  There is no place for @#$%holes anywhere. 
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Nolan on December 09, 2012, 08:12:20 pm
this thread remains a must read for all immigrants / potential immigrants and the last few posts have again proven that we all experience the whole process differently depending on our background, upbringing, reasons for emigrating, etc.

I do think however that whinging is not an English / Afrikaans/ Pommie thing, it's an immigrant thing because it is normal and natural to compare the two countries and there will invariably be things that are better and worse in both countries. I promise you that ALL immigrants, including those from Asia and all the other corners of the earth that have decided to emigrate to a new country do the same, sometimes in public, but mostly when they are with those in the same boat as them.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: Heart Artist on January 21, 2014, 08:54:54 pm
My husband and I have recently made the decision to emigrate from RSA to NZ.
Reading this post has been rather eye opening!

Our reasons for leaving seem so average - but the biggest reason is that we want to experience the better future we are working towards [constantly] as well as our child [hopefully children soon] TODAY. This appears true for everybody.

Our personal experiences from the [little from my side and LOADS from my hubby's] travelling we've done is how people tend to inflate their justifications for moving. Crime doesn't just become crime, it becomes rape, murderous, savage, brutal, wipe out your heritage crime... with intent! And I'm not saying that is not the case in RSA, sadly it is, but so many have left unaffected personally by it for it to not be the big factor in their lives. Racism is something we are tuned into in RSA and assume is non-existent elsewhere in the world, but when we get there are both shocked to find it's existence and practice, although not quite on the marvelous levels of sunny SA, and even embarrassed that the expats [us] [hopefully  :angel:] are inclined [through years of practice or exposure] to perpetuate. Hygeine, health care, and so on are not that bad, but they are not close to being perfect or awesome either. [Not wanting to start a fight, this is my EXPERIENCE and my point will follow shortly.] Maybe we are so used to being "tolerant" and constantly "discussing our differences and similarities" that we automatically do it regardless of our situation or stance, and regardless of how complaining and comparing are relative terms for the glass half full/empty/what's in it person.

What does astound me, on a personal note, is how many second generation expats are so severely brainwashed with their parents' justifications for leaving. It is something we are frightfully petrified of doing to our daughter. People actively hate a nation they never lived in, or were barely old enough to be conscious of experiencing. It shocks me how bitter people are about a country they, in theory, were never home to...  [my opinion here, before people get upset!]. As a South African [currently... hopefully not for long!] it is something I am deeply offended by, and not because I am the nationality I am but because of the aggression and, yes, arrogance, if not the out right hatred, comments are ignorantly snarled at you by these people.

On the same hand is how the grass is greener, and I am praying it really is, and how things are also so near perfect, that the question should never have been "should we do this" but rather "why did we not do this sooner" reaction and that too is nothing to be sneezed at. An affirmation of your decision is not a bad thing. It too, however, should come with some censorship, as it too can smack of complaining vs comparing.

I have, however, marveled at how the greatest issue is something I never contemplated in our decision to leave [my point] - another culture's opinion of us.

At the end of the day we have accepted a difficult life [and pray God blesses us with an amazing one], one where money or qualifications [because heaven knows it feels like we don't have enough of either!  :o] plays a major part in our even getting there, lest alone living there, where food, and clothes, and climate and taxes are something we have to learn all over again and where just making friends so if, God forbid, something bad happens we have a support structure of some sort is imperative.

The old adage "be the dumb blonde who gets the job done" is worth remembering. Not being an A-hole [sorry] and being a polite and good person is, STILL, the best and easiest thing to do and yet the most important.

Reading about how some choose to completely assimilate for whatever their reasons are, verses those who insist on keeping with who they think they are or are trying to preserve, has been educational. At the end of the day it is the very thing that is killing our country now. You cannot, especially overnight, tell somebody to stop being a watermelon, and that tomorrow they will be a cappuccino. There are things that need to happen to make you change, and things that will never be possible. It is unfair to ask it of you, and unfair to expect it of you, yet it is imperative that it happen for the VISION [insert fancy music here when reading VISION] to be achieved. Nobody has the recipe for how to achieve it internally, but aesthetically, there are encyclopedias.

The comment that luggage must be checked, your reasons must be positive, your attitude must be friendly and awesome, are relevant!
They are things that a person never thinks about, probably because we're such a "boer maak n' plan" and apologise for being rude with a beer, maybe, people. The comment that how you act paves the path for how we will be perceived and welcomed, is just as true now as it was how ever many years ago. We need to leave here, not want to, need to, and cannot if there is major opposition against the royal US.

Thank you for the posts, and thank you for the relevancy of it all.
It will be interesting to get a response to this reply, if only to hear if peoples' opinions of Kiwi's opinions of us has altered at all.

 ;)

Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: ased786 on May 06, 2014, 08:18:43 pm
 O0 Dear Heart Artist

I applaud you for your openness and honesty, I have to agree with you and especially "As a South African [currently... hopefully not for long!] it is something I am deeply offended by, and not because I am the nationality I am but because of the aggression and, yes, arrogance, if not the out right hatred, comments are ignorantly snarled at you by these people.".

So true, I think based on my own opinion, everyone leaves for a different reason, as I always tell my kids "just because your finger is not broken but your sister's finger is, does not mean that your pain is any less important then hers...it just means you have different injuries"

The grass is not always greener on the other side, and that is my personal opinion, I think the grass is going to be the color you are going to make it.

I have been in so many conversations where people comment about South Africa in particular with regards to crime and the obvious things which seems like a norm to most of us, I have learned that no matter what me or my kids or the next person do or say we will never be able to change their mindsets as that is something that each individual needs to do himself.  We can only set examples to our children and their generations that will follow God Willing.  In our case our kids were present when we were held at gunpoint in our own home, for the things we worked for and belonged to us yet it was taken from us without any consent.

This is our reason that we are moving and we have discussed this will all our kids (2, 10, 12, 16) and yet we remind them all the time you all have South African blood running through your veins, it doesn't matter which country you immigrate to, you will never slander or badmouth the country as being all bad, because you were born and raised here and nothing will ever change that.

Each and every journey comes with it's own positives and negatives, at the end of the day we need to ask ourselves whether the positive outweighs the negative once we have weighed the options then you can determine whether the journey is worth it.

For us who stayed in New Zealand for 3 years, the journey is soooo worth it... and God Willing we are going to succeed as we concluded that the positive in this journey outweighs the negative 10 fold... so this definitely makes the journey worth it.

But in essence I thank you for reminding me and me in turn reminding my family to do the right and most important things, with regards to Kiwi's  opinions of us, we have never for the time that we spend in New Zealand ever heard any Kiwi making a comment or throwing their negative opinions with regards to our country or our people, I have to admit and PLEASE with NO INTENTION TO OFFEND ANYONE, surprisingly a few ex South African's have visited old Cape Town and I was amazed how the moaning and complaining never stopped and how the comments went around stating "how do you guys live with all this violence and crime"? funny part though is they were born and raised here, just a thought....

Thnx once again for the reminder.. and I wish you and your family all the best with your mindset I pray that the Almighty makes things easy for you guys and that you succeed in everything you do.
Title: Re: A Change in Mindset
Post by: kaitangsou on February 02, 2015, 08:21:04 pm
Now for a touching story of reverse migration...from Homecoming website...

I fell in love at the age of 43. Not that responsible love which I know, or that infatuated love which I also know. But I fell in love in that real love way. When you can see someone for who they are – flaws and virtues – and love them anyway. Real love is irrational. My best friend for whom life is a rough road, whimsically says to me, “Tell me about love…” I say, “It is crazy. It doesn’t make sense at all. But it feels so good.”

I have just spoken to my dad’s cardiologist. Dad is 86 and his time is short. He was admitted into hospital yesterday for further tests. I lived in Sydney for 15 years, and I would pray that I’d somehow be able to spend significant time with my parents before they died. I moved back to South Africa two years ago in January 2013.

I think I was tricked.

My life in Sydney was established. Although divorced from my Australian husband, relationships were good. My two Australian children -15 and 13 – were in good private schools, and I had a supportive network of friends. I was in my last year formation as a Minister of the Word in the Uniting Church in Australia. My vocation was planned and I loved congregational ministry. But increasingly a pull to Africa and globalised Africans was forming part of my vision. What is our African identity? Who are we in the world born at this time? And what can we uniquely contribute – both to Africa and the new countries we found ourselves in.

Part of our nuclear family plan was that both children – in Year 10 – would attend a South African school for a year so that they could connect with their South African heritage and family. And so it was that my son and I arrived in Pietermaritzburg for a year in 2013. My son attended St Charles College, and I connected in with the Methodist Church of Southern Africa seminary.

And then the plan went pear-shaped!

At Easter, my ex-husband and my 13 year old daughter visited us from Sydney. On her return she decided that she wanted to come to study in South Africa too. The decision was not easy – but we managed to get her a place in Grade 8 at Epworth high school and she started in July 2013. The focus then turned to my son at the end of the year. Now that his sister was here until the end of 2014 (parental decision) should he stay in South Africa for matric, or return to his Sydney school as was the initial plan? Being a boy prone to taking commitments seriously, he decided to return to Sydney and his school friends.

And then at Easter 2014, my ex-husband, my 16 year old son, and my mother-in-law visited us from Australia. The day before they were to leave, my son announced that he wanted to reverse his decision and complete his schooling in South Africa. Again the decision was not easy – but we managed to negotiate between his Sydney school and St Charles and he returned two weeks later to Pietermaritzburg, to pick up the life here he left 3 months before.

My children are very happy, and they are thriving. The schools have engaged them in ways their private schools in Sydney did not. And assured of both parents’ support and love, both children (who only knew Australia) have chosen South Africa. And now, in matric, my son is thinking of TUKS or Stellies for varsity next year. My son says there is a freedom here that wasn’t there in Australia.

And South Africans are fun. They are full of character. Belonging to a wider family is good. And it is real here. You can feel life.

Would I have rationally chosen this for my children? Probably not. South Africa is challenging! But as I said, real love is crazy.

Yes… back to the love story. I am in love with South Africa – but in a real way. It is not a responsible love or an infatuated love. I can see South Africa’s flaws and its virtues. It is a crazy place. It makes no sense to live here. It is completely irrational. But it feels so good.

And just when you think that there is no special someone in this love story, I was surprised last year to fall in love with an old boyfriend I hadn’t been in contact with for 25 years. In fact, he was the boy I took to my matric dance. After living in the UK for 10 years, he also chose to return home four years ago.

Coming home. Here’s an African love story.